tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post1591982216202284735..comments2024-01-01T01:47:59.449+02:00Comments on Yaacov Lozowick's Ruminations: When do We Get to the Real Issues?Yaacovhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12835192312242961481noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-74687570158692883802010-10-17T17:14:51.788+02:002010-10-17T17:14:51.788+02:00They say that Jews are intelligent, but I cant see...They say that Jews are intelligent, but I cant see this in this conversation. Here are the facts. Europe offloaded a bunch of malcontents into Palestine. They stole our land. They used falsifications of history to provide an ethical gloss to their theft. Now brave Jews such as Norman Finkelstein, Avi Shlaim, and Shlomo Sand have punctured the founding myths. We dont want to share al Quds or any of Palestine, just as you wouldnt share your property with a burglar if he were caught. If you want peace, leave to your true homelandsRaed Kaminoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-12123737688660822402010-10-12T19:58:03.579+02:002010-10-12T19:58:03.579+02:00The real issue has always been Israel's right ...The real issue has always been Israel's right to exist as a Jewish State.<br /><br />The Palestinian Arabs have repeatedly refused to acknowledge it.<br /><br />I don't see peace happening with them in our lifetime.NormanFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03365459073293643108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-51831290342189231512010-10-12T18:07:49.222+02:002010-10-12T18:07:49.222+02:00Peter Hitchens' amazing piece has gotten appro...Peter Hitchens' amazing piece has gotten approval from the Elder of Ziyon <br />it is a shame that reports like that aren't the norm but the travelling around the globe with lightening speed exception<br />http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2010/10/daily-mail-reports-what-territories-are.html<br /><br />for ever nitpicking I have two "objections"<br /><br />as to "settlers" stealing water - to me it seems there must be a lot of stealing their own going on <br /><br /><i>zudem ist der Wasserverlust infolge dieser illegalen Baumaßnahmen und Abzweigungen enorm. Er liegt in der Westbank bei etwa 33 Prozent, gegenüber einem durchschnittlichen Verlust in Israel von elf Prozent.</i> <br />(Loss of Water as consequence of illegal building - wells - and intentional leaks is enorm. Westbank 33 % vs Israel's average 11 % ...) <br /><br />http://germanmediawatch.posterous.com/die-agenda-der-israelkritiker-von-alex-feuerh <br /><br />------- <br /> <br />as to poverty - I am a bit weary getting told about it by a westerner in the mediterranean - on "my" Greek island I learned that people living in very basic houses with hardly a change of multiply patched sweaters might very well own more than one apartment building in Athens i.e. my learned signs of taxing somebody were toast - I learned things like that only after I spoke the language. It could also be the other way around that a guy paying his taverna bill from a big rolled up wad of bills might just be making the necessities plus very little on top.<br /><br />SilkeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-46146985766345221952010-10-12T17:41:40.155+02:002010-10-12T17:41:40.155+02:00Errata
"latest thing" should be "g...Errata<br /><br />"latest thing" should be "greatest thing".<br /><br />"sliced bread" could be "the napkin".<br /><br />(And for some, no doubt, that's just for starters...)Barry Meislinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04795125774426217113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-69566611091992126132010-10-12T17:31:31.243+02:002010-10-12T17:31:31.243+02:00...all the while seeing Israel further delegitimiz......all the while seeing Israel further delegitimized, degraded, disenfranchised, eroded.<br /><br />...while more and more pundits and "analysts" and "experts" insist that there is no peace in the Middle East because, well folks, because "Israel just does not want peace QED" (TM---I think we can affix a Trademark sign to that as well, since it's practically achieved product status)...No sir: "Israelis would much rather make money (hint, wink, nod---pace "Time" Magazine), or just go to the beach (pace Daniel Drezner). Etc., etc.<br /><br />While the liberal mindset (much of it, alas, Jewish) can't understand why Israel feels so "threatened" or why Israelis don't seem to appreciate the current occupant of the White House (the latest thing since sliced bread). <br /><br />No. The Palestinians are sitting tight and sitting pretty.<br /><br />File under: "So who says you can't have everything?" (?)Barry Meislinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04795125774426217113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-14980090642505954232010-10-12T16:56:48.888+02:002010-10-12T16:56:48.888+02:00Well, not exactly "nothing". No, not exa...Well, not exactly "nothing". No, not exactly.<br /><br />They most emphatically agree to continue to be "Occupied"(TM) and "Oppressed" (TM)---the most horrendous occupation and oppression the world has ever witnessed, mind you----while being inundated with money, sympathy, weaponry and military training. Plus benefitting from one of the highest rates of economic growth in the Arab world, not to mention one of the highest life expectancy (but, of course, so what?, who cares? who's counting? it's irrelevant....)<br /><br />(Oh and did I mention "money, sympathy, weaponry and military training"?)Barry Meislinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04795125774426217113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-79441625876082277412010-10-12T16:46:15.175+02:002010-10-12T16:46:15.175+02:00Recognition of Israel as The Jewish State, and rep...Recognition of Israel as The Jewish State, and repatriation of these so called refugees are fundamentally incompatible ideas. You can not have one w/o rejecting the other. This is why the Palestinians will never do EITHER ONE. They can't admit that Israel is Jewish w/o abandoning claims for repatriation and they can't demand repatriation w/o demanding the extinction of Israel. So they do what they do, which is nothing.Empress Trudyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06073538968722986065noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-56287035177081915082010-10-12T16:29:50.869+02:002010-10-12T16:29:50.869+02:00not a serious proposition.
but isn't that exa...<i> not a serious proposition.</i><br /><br />but isn't that exactly the kind of proposition they are making all the time? <br /><br />or to put it more drastically<br /><br />if their nonsense is taken seriously by everybody then out-nonsensing them is certainly a legitimate way to go. Especially when it is so nicely exposing them as is this one.<br /><br />SilkeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-40037623062208345022010-10-12T15:52:30.938+02:002010-10-12T15:52:30.938+02:00...under terms that are acceptable to everyone EXC...<i>...under terms that are acceptable to everyone EXCEPT them.</i><br /><br />This presumes that the Palestinians have "terms".<br /><br />....They do, of course; though not in the sense that most (many? some? a few?) of us would prefer that they do. <br /><br />("would prefer"----Heh! such a bourgeois concept.....)<br /><br />Anyway, to be brief, their terms are:<br />1. Return to the May 1967 borders.<br />and<br />2. Return East Jerusalem.<br />and<br />3. Return the refugees to within pre-1967 Israel.<br /><br />(or.... no deal, fellas.)<br /><br />In other words, their terms are:<br />1. Israel must agree to dismantle herself.<br />or<br />2. We will (so very sorry) have to destroy her.<br /><br />Simple. No frills. Nothing complicated. Nothing to "misconstrue".<br /><br />Simple.<br /><br />(By the way, did I mention the "terms" are non-negotiable?)Barry Meislinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04795125774426217113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-65081299472574356312010-10-12T15:24:34.009+02:002010-10-12T15:24:34.009+02:00and watching it from very far away and very scarce...and watching it from very far away and very scarcely informed my gut reaction is more and more that Netanyahu and Lieberman are playing an elaborate game of bad cop good cop<br /><br />if they don't do it intentionally - then maybe that's why they seem to be so good at it to me<br /><br />(as I see it Lieberman effectively diminishes the pressure of the do-gooders on Netanyahu by performing as the "evil" obstacle very convincingly) <br /><br />SilkeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-7215092674010240362010-10-12T15:04:21.954+02:002010-10-12T15:04:21.954+02:00Victor --
And Obama gets his opportunity to exit a...Victor --<br />And Obama gets his opportunity to exit and blame both Israel and the Palestinians.<br />That works for me.Saul Liebermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07399120227171316267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-19741214558227816122010-10-12T14:47:37.718+02:002010-10-12T14:47:37.718+02:00The tactical maneuvering here is really quite some...The tactical maneuvering here is really quite something to watch. <br /><br />The Palestinian demand for a settlement freeze pits American (not to mention European) policy and commitments against Israeli policy and commitments.<br /><br />Recognition of Israel as a Jewish state is a central plank of American and European policy towards the peace process, but runs counter to Palestinian policy.<br /><br />Netanyahu gives the Americans and Europeans what they want: a settlement freeze, under terms that they are already committed to uphold - Israel being defined as a Jewish state - while forcing a policy confrontation between them and the Palestinians.<br /><br />The Palestinians can have their temporary settlement freeze, under terms that are acceptable to everyone EXCEPT them.<br /><br />You have to appreciate the finesse.Avigdorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05008730229882004376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-10518112895489637852010-10-12T14:32:03.873+02:002010-10-12T14:32:03.873+02:00OT
Nir Barkat's apparently latest talk at the ...OT<br />Nir Barkat's apparently latest talk at the Washington Institute <br /><br />http://itunes.apple.com/de/podcast/jerusalem-a-vision-for-tomorrow/id254026678?i=88050831<br /><br />SilkeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-33997886833011597252010-10-12T12:57:32.706+02:002010-10-12T12:57:32.706+02:00At this point I think that Netanyahu or who ever i...At this point I think that Netanyahu or who ever is representing Israel should just come out and say that Israel expects the Palestinians to drop their right of return demand rather than recognize Israel as a Jewish state. Both lead to the same result and the former is a bit harder for the Palestinian side to misconstrue.Lee Ratnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08139895689217213860noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-13681818334908548912010-10-12T12:51:33.248+02:002010-10-12T12:51:33.248+02:00gee I admire you people who manage to read Yglesia...gee I admire you people who manage to read Yglesias - I read this one, it was my second try, the last was way back when he was still at the Atlantic - it will take me a long time before I'll dare to inflict that kind of pain on myself again.<br /><br />and here we have the same picture we discussed over at the Shlomo Sand threat - colleagues continue to write about Yglesias as if he had something to say. All I remember is a given that post very mild aside by Goldberg.<br /><br />-----<br /><br />To answer Yaacov's question - NEVER as long as the "west" insists on regarding the Palestinians as unruly children who just can't help themselves and are thus in need of another 10 hours of occupational therapy or whatever that stuff is called when inflicted upon children. Even real children tend to object to being patronised in the way "we" patronise "them".<br /><br />SilkeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-44177155840941708392010-10-12T12:39:36.179+02:002010-10-12T12:39:36.179+02:00Yaacov,
This is off topic but did you happen to s...Yaacov,<br /><br />This is off topic but did you happen to see Yglesias' mention of your Hebron piece on his blog.<br /><br />http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/2010/10/cliches-everywhere/<br /><br />I think he completely missed the point of what you wrote, but then again it seems like he's missing the point of everything on his trip.Jonahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14596761007403558778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-57538074863650902882010-10-12T12:32:36.430+02:002010-10-12T12:32:36.430+02:00Been there. Done that.
Been wiped from memory.
A...Been there. Done that.<br /><br />Been wiped from memory.<br /><br />As you've so gallantly demonstrated.Barry Meislinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04795125774426217113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-11694853675290009162010-10-12T12:28:51.901+02:002010-10-12T12:28:51.901+02:00I always have thought that some Israel government ...I always have thought that some Israel government should simply say: there is an offer on the table, if you (the PA) don't like it, make a counter offer. And then walk away from the table. Let Obama react to that without seeming foolish.David Galantnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-76207824040324005302010-10-12T11:47:34.133+02:002010-10-12T11:47:34.133+02:00The Real Issues?
Should be "The Real Issue&...The Real Issues? <br /><br />Should be "The Real Issue".<br /><br />And, by the way, we've already "gotten" to it. In fact, it's been talked about---incessantly---since 1948/49.<br /><br />The real issue is the disappearance of Israel.<br /><br />So yes, let's talk about it. If you want. Some more. Why not? Yawn....Barry Meislinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04795125774426217113noreply@blogger.com