tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post3555750648332143524..comments2024-01-01T01:47:59.449+02:00Comments on Yaacov Lozowick's Ruminations: Terms of CompromiseYaacovhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12835192312242961481noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-2783402749605577392009-12-29T22:19:47.992+02:002009-12-29T22:19:47.992+02:00Israelis have accepted the legitimacy of Palestini...Israelis have accepted the legitimacy of Palestinian nationalism. On the other side, there is still no acknowledgment of the legitimacy of Jewish nationalism, viz, Zionism.<br /><br />And until that changes all talk of peace between Israel and a putative Palestine will continue to remain a chimera.NormanFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03365459073293643108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-89039511723856157972009-12-22T16:38:50.428+02:002009-12-22T16:38:50.428+02:00Just expressing the Palestinian viewpoint, as I un...Just expressing the Palestinian viewpoint, as I understand it.<br /><br />I don't agree with it.<br /><br />But I believe it's necessary to articulate it, and to articulate it clearly, so that those who dearly wish to believe that the Palestinians really want to live side by side with a Jewish state will understand that their wishful thinking is no more than just that.<br /><br />Not that they will be persuaded, though....Barry Meislinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04795125774426217113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-16296963587014804182009-12-22T15:51:08.731+02:002009-12-22T15:51:08.731+02:00Barry, you have a lot to learn. Your comment is s...Barry, you have a lot to learn. Your comment is showing supreme ignorance due to exposure to ridiculous propaganda, right down to denying the Jewish people their identity. You have nothing to add to the conversation until you learn facts.Stevennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-20963151233703318312009-12-22T15:21:50.486+02:002009-12-22T15:21:50.486+02:00It's not a question about being happy.
It'...It's not a question about being happy.<br /><br />It's a question of principle: The Jews do not deserve a Jewish state in Palestine. The Jewish state is not legal, is not just, and must (and will) eventually be erased.<br /><br />(And for good measure, Jews aren't even Jews.)<br /><br />As for the epigram "not missing an opportunity to miss an opportunity", it is a non-sequitur (albeit clever-sounding), since it presupposes that any "opportunity" the Palestinians may have "missed" was the opportunity to live in a Palestinian state side by side with Israel.<br /><br />However, establishing a state side by side with the Jewish state has <b>never</b> been an option for the Palestinians (and they have taken great pains to show that it will never be one); hence, the epigram makes no sense.<br /><br />The only opportunities missed by the Palestinians (thus far, at least) have been to eliminate the Jewish State. <br /><br />Not to worry, however. They are still working at it with zest, zeal, and an increasing sense of hope.<br /><br />And if it takes another 10, or 50 or 100 years, so be it. Allah (along with generous donations from the West, and even Israel) will provide.Barry Meislinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04795125774426217113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-78634994211913328032009-12-22T06:50:03.033+02:002009-12-22T06:50:03.033+02:00I'm not sure if I (or anyone) can remain impar...I'm not sure if I (or anyone) can remain impartial when dealing with this topic. But honestly-do you really think that the Palestinians would be satisfied with that? they've never "missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity". They've been offered land, their own state-but I don't think they'll ever (I'm talking about the extremists who rule by force) be happy unless the entire Israel becomes Palestine..Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-39172120797146292972009-12-22T04:46:25.235+02:002009-12-22T04:46:25.235+02:00Yaacov, first, thanks for this. I must admit, I ha...Yaacov, first, thanks for this. I must admit, I haven't read your book yet, but I intend to. Everything you said is logical and sensible. There is no point in boring you with arguments you can make yourself, so I have just 2 points.<br /><br />1) You assume the Palestinians, and in particular, their leadership, desire the same basic outcome you do.<br /><br />2) You assume we - well, you, Israelis - can absorb the failure of a 2 state solution to end the conflict.<br /><br />I can't prove you wrong. You've laid the two state argument about as well as anyone I've seen. I just don't agree with your starting assumptions.<br /><br />Regardless, why not create a hedge for all these bets you're making? By leaving Jewish communities in Shomron and Yehudah in place, we create a buffer by which to judge Palestinian actions. Should they choose to build a peaceful society, all will be well. However, should they choose not to, the settlements will be our canary in the coal mine.Avigdorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05008730229882004376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-31132033969215353592009-12-22T01:07:58.936+02:002009-12-22T01:07:58.936+02:00There is a key glitch in this. The day, the moment...There is a key glitch in this. The day, the moment, an independent Palestinian state is declared and recognized, is the day, the moment when every other Arab state will literally flush themselves of every least Palestinian. Every Palestinian in Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, the Gulf States, Muslim Africa. Every single one. This will have the effect of doubling the population of this nascent Palestinian state overnight. And if you believe that they are profoundly unable and unwilling to erect and maintain the basic infrastructures and organizations of civic order then there is zero possibility in them being able to handle this problem. It will result in anarchy on a scale even the Palestinians haven't seen and UNRWA is even less prepared to cope with. Which will result in new Jewish blood libel and calls for Israel to 'deal with it' or be invaded or whatever the OIC yells about on that particular day. None of which will actually address or alleviate the problem. The Palestinians are bound for a hellish existence of their own creation whatever course they take at this point. Blaming the Jews and saying "NO!" won't change that.Empress Trudyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06073538968722986065noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-10488461676978753352009-12-22T00:46:16.778+02:002009-12-22T00:46:16.778+02:00Imagine what happens, if negotiations with Palesti...Imagine what happens, if negotiations with Palestinians are successfully concluded along these outlines. No more treatment of their leaders way beyond their actual international importance. No more red carpets, no more pre-eminence, maybe one more Nobel Peace Price and then obscurity. <br /><br />Even in prosperous highly industrialised states with lots of different areas (finance, manufacture, arts, science, politics etc. etc.) where competition and eminence is to be had that's a lot to ask of those on top but what if your chances of becoming No 1, 2 or 3 in anything are less than realistic? After being the one and only pivotal entity resigning yourself to be just another one of "them". Even if I leave everything else aside just for that one reason I can't imagine it happening, even if the Palestinians came up with an absolutely exceptional leader, what would happen to all that euphoria created by him once the deal was done? Therefore I believe the best deal to be had in order to preserve a maximum of peace is sincere negotiations, to the brink, then failure and restart.<br /><br />rgds,<br />SilkeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-41810106943751529232009-12-21T22:42:11.165+02:002009-12-21T22:42:11.165+02:00I've tried to stay informed on the negotiation...I've tried to stay informed on the negotiations over the years, I've found it very difficult to follow because the Palestinian side is very Arab in the way they never commit to anything. It reminds me of haggling with merchants in Cairo, name a price & they keep saying "More, more" <br /><br />That said a negotiation is merely two parties who want something the other has got, the rest is just haggling over the details. Cut to the chase and the only thing the Palestinians have to sell is peace. There's nothing else that Israel wants from them. The real question is; have they put it up for sale?<br /><br />Yaacov have the Palestinians EVER put forward a concrete proposal of their own? You've listed what you think they'd settle for, but have they ever actually fronted up at the negotiating table and put their cards on the table? I ask this because I've never seen or heard of any offer from them. It's always appeared to have been one-way traffic.<br /><br />Regard, GavinGavinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-59579316286124760222009-12-21T21:58:03.475+02:002009-12-21T21:58:03.475+02:00Really well written comment Anon.Really well written comment Anon.Mr. Gersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14505463927517951971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-11634486327744876482009-12-21T21:39:34.875+02:002009-12-21T21:39:34.875+02:00they're willing to stop killing and being kill...<i>they're willing to stop killing and being killed for a state in those lines, but anything smaller they'll continue to kill and be killed for</i><br /><br />Is this true? It seems that there are a sizable number of Palestinians who want more than that. Hamas, which can lay claim to being the legitimate government representing the Palestinians, does not seem to accept this. ULtimately, it isn't what the "Palestinians" will agree to that matters, it is what the controlling leadership will agree to that matters.chareidilitenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-22215707024251157082009-12-21T20:51:17.574+02:002009-12-21T20:51:17.574+02:00The idea that those are the essential Palestinian ...The idea that those are the essential Palestinian goals is, I suggest, a misconception. And more: the near-ubiquitousness of this misconception is itself a major component of the problem. <br /><br />The actual, overarching goal of mainstream Palestinians is that <i>the hurting of Jews, for being Jews, remain legitimate</i>. Everything else that is important to them, such as being prosperous and physically safe, is secondary to that. And details like whether they have national sovereignty are not very high on the list - <i>except</i> when, as often happens, they are tactically useful in promoting the primary goal. But when circumstances force a choice, the primary goal trumps any other.<br /><br />This no doubt sounds bizarre; yet it is not at all unusual. Many cultures in history have had antisemitism built into the fabric of their individual and collective identity in a similar way.<br /><br />Nor is this a reason for despair. Quite the contrary. The conflict will be solved, and a Palestinian state will be born into peace and prosperity (though not, as you have pointed out, actual friendship with Israel), when - but only when - that aspect of Palestinian culture is superseded by something rational and decent. This, too, has happened in many societies, especially during the late twentieth century. It will happen in Palestinian culture too, sooner or later. So why not sooner? The more this is recognized by <i>their opponents</i>, the sooner they will realize it too - to the enormous benefit of all, especially themselves and their children.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com