tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post5245013735976363595..comments2024-01-01T01:47:59.449+02:00Comments on Yaacov Lozowick's Ruminations: Israel is Wrong. Period.Yaacovhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12835192312242961481noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-21245114600206791942007-10-05T14:15:00.000+02:002007-10-05T14:15:00.000+02:00Palestinians working illegally in Israel being arr...Palestinians working illegally in Israel being arrested at night is actually quite plausible. Systematic beatings are not, but a certain degree of roughness that could be interpreted differently by eacy side, is not impossible - especially if it's mutual or percieved as such. Three hour beatings and forced confessions sound pretty strange to me. What's the purpose? Once it's determined they're illegally in Israel, they get deported back to the West Bank. No additional confession are required.<BR/><BR/>Not having been there, I can't say anything more precise than that.Yaacovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12835192312242961481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-20510937805742335102007-10-02T15:08:00.000+02:002007-10-02T15:08:00.000+02:00I'm sorry about the link. I've had trouble getting...I'm sorry about the link. I've had trouble getting back to their site, too. I appreciate the word on their patchy record. The story was a claim that seven Palestinians working without permits in the Beer Sheva area were arrested by Israeli police as they slept in the middle of the night, taken to the police station, and beaten horribly for hours, then forced to sign a confession to theft, for which they got three months in jail. That's the short version.<BR/><BR/>Now, I wouldn't think Israeli police would act this way. I would think they'd get in plenty of trouble for doing so. And (maybe this is naive) but if the men could support their claims with testimony from doctors who had treated them and so forth, wouldn't they have a court case? The story was detailed and disturbing, but I noticed that it said nothing about following up and checking with independent sources on whether this had happened. It bore a striking resemblance to stories one reads about police behavior in Arab countries, which could be an argument that it was a made-up story.<BR/><BR/>I think the headline is on the second page of their list of items.<BR/><BR/>It was interesting to me to note how many of their other stories were things that got a shrug from me. For example, "Man dies of a heart attack while soldiers hold up ambulance at a checkpoint." My feeling is, whose fault is that? The people who try to blow people up and make checkpoints necessary.Lydia McGrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00423567323116960820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-79093795214418200542007-10-02T14:13:00.000+02:002007-10-02T14:13:00.000+02:00The link didnt work, for some reason, but I know B...The link didnt work, for some reason, but I know B'Tselem, and I read some of their testimonies.<BR/>Past experience with them would indicate any of the following possibilities:<BR/>1. They're right. There have been precedents for this, and they do Israel a good service when they're a reliable watchdog. Which reminds me that I once wrote something about one of their sister organizations. Perhaps I'll dig around and post it here someday soon.<BR/>2. The facts are accurate but only part of the story, and the full story, were it to be told, would sound very different. And see Gideons Levy's report at the top of this post.<BR/>3. The facts are accurate but not really so bad. Some of these testimonies tell about the humiliation of forcing men to undress for searching, while women are checked only with metal detectors. Seems to me the humiliation is worth it if it works, and the calculated risk of not checking the women likewise. And it works: suicide attacks are drastically down, not becasue the Palestinians stopped hating us but because we learned how to thwart them (and so fewer Palestinians are getting killed, not only Israelis).<BR/>4. Someone is lying. I can tell from personal experience of cases where self-appointed Israeli wathdogs have done some creative directing of their own so as to tell a more compellng story; if so, what's the chance that they efficiently shoot down every tallish tale or elaboration that comes their way? Remember Jenin 2002, where this was going on on a massive level.<BR/>5. B'Tselem's record, by the way, has been a bit patchy over the years, meaning all of the above scenarios have happened to them. Which is too bad, because had they stuck to the first option they would have done a better job on the ground. But I suppose they'd have had a harder job, because there aren't all that many true cases to tell about, and undoubtedly they'd have had a greater challange with fundraising, not to mention with their ideology.Yaacovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12835192312242961481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-771494828120023202007-10-02T02:29:00.000+02:002007-10-02T02:29:00.000+02:00I can't bring myself to read it. That kind of thin...I can't bring myself to read it. That kind of thing makes me almost physically ill with fury.<BR/><BR/>I swear, there is _nothing_ the Israelis can do that is right. I realize that you had legitimate criticisms of last year's Lebanon war, but what upset me during that, among other things, was all the wailing about damage to infrastructure. Now, to me, the attitude behind that was just the bicycles in this article writ large. Basically, if Israel does anything to defend itself and any object--not a human being but any physical object that anyone at all values--gets knocked down or damaged, it's Oh So Horrible. How _dare_ you guys ever destroy a wall, a building, a bicycle, an airport runway? Even if there isn't a *single innocent human life* lost in the attempt to respond to explicitly civilian-targeting attacks from your enemies, it's gonna be, "Oooh, those horrid Israelis. They knocked down somebody's white picket fence!" <BR/><BR/>It makes me almost too angry to speak, it's so bizarre.<BR/><BR/>That being said, what I'd very much like to hear your take on is this weird story:<BR/><BR/>http://www.btselem.org/english/Testimonies/20070322_Police_Officers_torure_and_abuse_workers_witness_Hamamdah.asp<BR/><BR/>Somebody directed me to this Btselem site. Now, I'm able to figure out that these people are _way_ to the left and are calling for all manner of nonsense. The one that really got me going was the headline where they called on Israel to open the Gaza crossings to "all passenger traffic, regardless of political affiliations to Hamas." Y'know, belonging to Hamas is just a "political affiliation," like being a Republican or a Democrat in the U.S.! And so I don't consider them a credible source. I can imagine that they would accept uncritically any atrocity stories of police brutality and what-not from Palestinians without checking their credibility.<BR/><BR/>But this particular one is a pretty disturbing story. Do you think it's just manufactured out of whole cloth and handed to credulous human rights activists, or true, or what?Lydia McGrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00423567323116960820noreply@blogger.com