tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post6929804164835512090..comments2024-01-01T01:47:59.449+02:00Comments on Yaacov Lozowick's Ruminations: J-Street, and the Popular Art of Not Seeing IsraelisYaacovhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12835192312242961481noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-83045608048599808642011-03-04T01:48:30.177+02:002011-03-04T01:48:30.177+02:00J Street wants to be progressive and as it has wor...J Street wants to be progressive and as it has worked out to be progressive means to be anti-Israel. They can't be pro-Israel in any real sense and still be part of the great upsurge of progressivism that makes them feel so righteous and whatever J Street does it will keep in mind its need to prove and prove again it's progressive bona fides to the non-Jewish left.<br /><br />By the way, did anyone who was at the conference go to the seminar on BDS? According to one report its purpose was to discuss whether J Street should support the idea, not how to combat it. I'd be interested to know what actually happened and whether J Street actually was willing to consider, even as a discussion topic, support for the concept.Alex Benskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669007254706796976noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-63720323541588541402011-03-03T22:17:28.570+02:002011-03-03T22:17:28.570+02:00RK
what is the latest on their finances - any more...RK<br />what is the latest on their finances - any more explanations forthcoming, why they hid Soros? and what about that Hongkong race track financier for which Goldberg demanded that they undergo a thorough colonoscopy. Lots of outrage and now all under the carpet?<br /><br />I thought they were the rightist ones, no shady dealings with them, everything on the table transparent and absolutely unobjectionable by even the highest standards imaginable.Silkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16383345395827271854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-27552514665177918192011-03-03T21:13:31.333+02:002011-03-03T21:13:31.333+02:00RK -
I made 3 points in my last comment. You resp...RK -<br /><br />I made 3 points in my last comment. You responded to half of the most minor one of them.<br /><br />Anyway, I don't understand what it is you're trying to say. So far as I know, the best thing one can say about J-Street (and their public), assuming one doesn't want to say they're anti-Israel, is that they're convinced the conflict exists because Israel refuses to end it, and that for nefarious reasons. Are you saying otherwise?Yaacovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12835192312242961481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-30477811763666793312011-03-03T21:06:01.820+02:002011-03-03T21:06:01.820+02:00bacci40, it's pretty obvious from the context ...bacci40, it's pretty obvious from the context that Eltahawy's call for a "nonviolent revolution for freedom and dignity for Palestians" was a standard rhetorical trope meaning "a sea change in attitudes," not a literal plea for toppling the Israeli government (or the PA, or whoever -- the fact that, pace Yaacov's post, she didn't specify an actual government or country is further evidence of my point). Or do you think the "Ron Paul Revolutionaries" were calling for an actual coup?<br /><br />Yaacov and Silke, lacking as I do your unerring insight into human psychology, I'm forced to take people's stated motivations at face value unless I have irrefutable evidence otherwise. (For instance, I don't think Shlomo Ben-Yosef necessarily hated Arabs, though that would certainly be consistent with his actions. A more charitable interpretation of his motives would take into account what was going on in Palestine from 1936 to 1939.) With respect to the 20-year-old Brandeis freshman who's apparently our stand-in for the J Streeters, it's hard to believe that someone would consider making aliyah simply to flatter their self-conception as "the type of person who cares about the Palestinians." (You found it hard to believe that the Egyptians would shoot themselves in the foot out of solidarity with the Palestinians. Well, I find it hard to believe that someone would give up a comfortable life in the country they grew up in out of solidarity with the Palestinians.) As for the fact that he feels uncomfortable with the Israeli electorate, I agree it's pretty silly -- but silly is all it is. He's not saying Israel's democracy is declining (he's really saying the opposite) and he's not saying peace is dead because Israelis love the occupation. I class it with my uncle who refuses to move back to California because "it's full of liberals."<br /><br />I never said you had to find time to watch the conference. I just pointed out that there is an "obvious alternative to consuming media reports."RKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-50511647131164313872011-03-03T11:32:47.418+02:002011-03-03T11:32:47.418+02:00my bad for being European and the deeply ingrained...my bad for being European and the deeply ingrained habit of fearing that the 30 year war may start all over again at any moment and the Turks besiege Vienna and the Huns come ariding<br /><br />it is all over the landscape and so one isn't allowed to forget that it happened again and again and again<br /><br />that said I enjoy paradise while it lasts hugely but I lack a feeling of trust that it will continueSilkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16383345395827271854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-38574128106269293942011-03-03T04:02:59.349+02:002011-03-03T04:02:59.349+02:00Silke -
Arthur Miller was born in 1915, which was...Silke -<br /><br />Arthur Miller was born in 1915, which was a long time ago. Segregation and discrimination were legal and institutional. It was a much more violent society. That stuff is just not accepted today.<br /><br />Of course no place is perfect, but I feel the US has become a particularly tolerant and integrated place. In New York State, where I live, the number of reported hate crimes for 2009 was 683 for a population of 19.5 million. That is less than 0.004%. I don't feel there is violence waiting just under the surface, in any large scale way.<br /><br />That is just my experience of things living in New York City, which is a very diverse place.<br /><br />NycerbarbAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-55549764994832436822011-03-02T18:48:19.374+02:002011-03-02T18:48:19.374+02:00I'm not a scientist thus I ask in all sinceret...I'm not a scientist thus I ask in all sincerety the question is there any way to prove beyond reasonable doubt "moral vanity" and if there is, what would the criteria be?<br /><br />Hitherto I have always believed that if a person I trust diagnoses moral vanity that that is his/her personal impression and I have cherished the information as such.Silkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16383345395827271854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-74197039657975636442011-03-02T18:42:55.266+02:002011-03-02T18:42:55.266+02:00Nycerbarb
ages ago I read a book of short stories ...Nycerbarb<br />ages ago I read a book of short stories by Arthur Miller where he vividly described how boys were harrassed for being Jewish, so vividly in fact that it is hard to convince myself, that it wasn't autobiographic. <br /><br />There is a story by ??? Epstein where he tells how Jewish boys learned to fight the bullies. <br /><br />Has all that vanished for good or is it just undergroudn for the time being? (as to Germans my bet would be on underground)Silkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16383345395827271854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-85869819503724282752011-03-02T18:35:36.611+02:002011-03-02T18:35:36.611+02:00Dear Tony,
what about that Hongkong Racetrack JSt...Dear Tony,<br /><br />what about that Hongkong Racetrack JStreet financier? Information about that one would greatly interest me. Do you have any? Jeffrey Goldberg demanded a thorough colonoscopy on that one when the news broke first but since then NADA and not just at Goldblog but apparently everywhere. Why?????<br /><br />Somehow I am sure you know - so please please please tell!<br /><br />thank you!Silkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16383345395827271854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-16849777635565674412011-03-02T15:30:07.229+02:002011-03-02T15:30:07.229+02:00Most secular American Jews know nothing of Judaism...Most secular American Jews know nothing of Judaism, Jewish history, Jewish culture and Jewish religious observance.<br /><br />Not surprisingly, many of them fall prey to a well organized anti-Semitic campaign that blames the Jews for all the evils in the world and makes Israel appear as the obstacle to peace in the Middle East.<br /><br />The Israeli government has done NOTHING to fight back - it has lent this campaign credence by accepting that Israel is the obstacle to peace and has viciously beaten and shot Jews who have resisted being thrown out of their homes for peace in our time.<br /><br />And with many Jews siding with the enemy's characterization of Israel, both in Israel and abroad, the prospects that Israel will be able to survive a growing campaign of de-legitimization and world isolation do not look good.<br /><br />No amount of Israeli concessions will alter this campaign or blunt its momentum in the slightest as it has nothing to do with the "occupation" or with the absence of a solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.<br /><br />The hatred in the Arab World for instance, is directed at the Jews. But few people want to face reality anyway these days.NormanFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03365459073293643108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-55430872014119939962011-03-02T13:03:59.462+02:002011-03-02T13:03:59.462+02:00J-Street is wasting its time. With the freeze in t...J-Street is wasting its time. With the freeze in the “peace process” the already strong American support for Israel is INCREASING. This means most Americans (and I also believe this is true of Europeans as well) realize the Arabs are at fault for the lack of peace. This is from a Gallup poll:<br /><br />http://www.gallup.com/poll/146408/Americans-Maintain-Broad-Support-Israel.aspx?utm_source=alert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=syndication&utm_content=morelink&utm_term=Politics<br /><br />Thus J-Street can try as hard as it wants to turn American Jewish opinion against Israel, but that is just a drop in the bucket compared to the large support from non-Jewish Americans. Note that people who define themselves as “liberal” are also solidly pro-Israel.Y.Ben-Davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-381699631074090952011-03-02T11:50:45.854+02:002011-03-02T11:50:45.854+02:00beinart isnt good enough to lick rav yosef's s...beinart isnt good enough to lick rav yosef's shoes, let alone criticize him.<br /><br />and im sorry....i read from two people that there was no kosher food anywhere to be found during most of the event.<br /><br />these people stood and applauded while an egyptian con artist posing as a journalist, bashed israel<br /><br />they disgust me and represent only the dregs of the earthAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-27961144810724447752011-03-02T11:34:11.955+02:002011-03-02T11:34:11.955+02:00Anonymous, don't people like Illan Pappe and t...Anonymous, don't people like Illan Pappe and the PLO already have a monopoly on that "new way to be pro-Israeli"?<br /><br />DannyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-34157061512200585102011-03-02T11:01:16.495+02:002011-03-02T11:01:16.495+02:00What I find particularly fascinating is the extrao...What I find particularly fascinating is the extraordinary success that the Palestinians---and Arabs, generally---have had in converting the world to the view that they are moral arbiters to whom the world must look for clarity and guidance (e.g., our distinguished resident rabbi, above).<br /><br />It is a most phenomenal development that bodes ill for everyone who has fallen under its sway.<br /><br />As such, avoidance of context, background, history, knowledge is lauded because it makes the "liberated" feel good, feel right, feel moral---or at least feel less bad.<br /><br />File under: "Moral inversion 'R UsBarry Meislinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04795125774426217113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-84264776495200810282011-03-02T10:45:35.095+02:002011-03-02T10:45:35.095+02:00RK -
Why would I wish to find time to watch the p...RK -<br /><br />Why would I wish to find time to watch the proceedings? As for the 4 Kadima MKs, I've already blogged about them.<br /><br />To your main point, however, I thank you for agreeing with mine. Of course Jews felt sorry for themselves, sometimes with reasonable cause. So they wrote books about it, prayed that God would revenge them, and that sort of stuff. What they didn't do was blow up buses or rocket schools where children of their enemies were certain to be killed, nor develop a narrative about how everything that was wrong in their society was all the fault of foreigners.<br /><br />Actually, if I can find the time, maybe I'll write a post about this fundamental issue. But maybe not.<br /><br />Anyway, I stand by my main point, which you're not addressing: the J-Streeters have not the slightest interest in the world the Israelis live in, except where it makes them feel uncomfortable, and then they blame the Israelis for their discomfort. You'll forgive me if I find this distasteful in the extreme. <br /><br />They also have no interest in the Palestinians as real people either, by the way, merely as the foil for their discomfort with Israel.Yaacovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12835192312242961481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-17397955643491710312011-03-02T10:29:13.665+02:002011-03-02T10:29:13.665+02:00An excellent point.
Far more effective to present...An excellent point.<br /><br />Far more effective to present---to certain audiences---Israel's existence as "unfair" rather than "criminal."<br /><br />All the while clamoring continually---for other audiences---that Israel's existence is "criminal."<br /><br />To be sure, if something is touted strongly enough---and long enough---as "unfair," it inevitably becomes "criminal."<br /><br />So that attempting to destroy Israel has now become not only "fair" but a "moral necessity."<br /><br />(But don't tell Peter Beinart, et. al....)Barry Meislinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04795125774426217113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-40924099963366676422011-03-02T07:33:14.614+02:002011-03-02T07:33:14.614+02:00Well, you wouldn't have had to rely on the med...Well, you wouldn't have had to rely on the media and polemical bloggers if, like <a href="http://selfhatinggentile.blogspot.com/2011/03/israelis-are-honest-in-washington.html" rel="nofollow">Tom Mitchell</a>, you had simply watched the conference online. There were actually quite a few Israelis there, including four MKs from the party you voted for.<br /><br />What really struck me, though, was the fact that you accuse "the J-Streeters" of moral vanity without a shred of evidence, beyond the fact that they disagree with you. Actually, some might sense a note of moral vanity in all that preening about how Jews were immune to self-pity and histrionics. But anyone who's cracked open a Gemara, sung Av Harachamim, or read Baron's <i>Social and Religious History of the Jews</i> ought to know that Jews handle lachrymosity and ineffectual acts of vengeance just fine, thank you.RKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-17262861764461526592011-03-02T05:40:45.604+02:002011-03-02T05:40:45.604+02:00Thank you for the satire, Rabbi Tony.
Yaacov -
I...Thank you for the satire, Rabbi Tony.<br /><br />Yaacov -<br /><br />I think the issue for J-Streeters is having a simple narrative they can buy into. As American Jews, we don't feel particularly discriminated against (b"h) and as part of a large, fairly homogeneous, country, we don't have the sense of distinct ethnic nationalities that was typical of the European experience where Zionism incubated. Nationalism and persecution are not part of our experiences and conscience. (of course I am speaking in very general terms, here.)<br /><br />I think what does resonate for young Americans is "fairness." My generation and after have been proactively educated to expunge racism from our society, because racism is unfair. The effort has been hugely successful, in my opinion, although by no means complete. <br /><br />The Arabs have managed to create a narrative that portrays them as the victims of "a great unfairness." This is why the "Israel is Apartheid" meme is particularly effective and compelling.<br /><br />Unfortunately, too many young American Jews have no connection to Jewish ritual or Jewish culture. Their "Jewishness" consists of being non-Christian Americans of European descent. Their experience is of being the outsider, not of being connected to a Jewish people.<br /><br />So, they are mostly ignorant of the history of Jews and of Israel. (For example, even I was not sure if Jerusalem was a majority Jewish city from pre-British times.) We don't have our own narrative to appeal to this generation. Instead, we react to the Arab narrative. They control the story.<br /><br />Ok. That's just my 2 grush based on my experience. I could be totally naive.<br /><br />NycerbarbAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-19086651888376936162011-03-02T03:15:00.693+02:002011-03-02T03:15:00.693+02:00I applaud J Streets new direction. At its inceptio...I applaud J Streets new direction. At its inception, J Street was composed of the so called 2 staters, who wanted to retain the theft of 1948 and give back the theft of 1967, and the one staterts, who want to give back all of the theft. With my influence and support, the one staters are given the upper hand.I was thrilled to see Rebecca Villkomersen introduce the BDS movement to J Street, and I am confident that by next year, BDS will be a central tenet of J Street. I am also pleased with the involvement of Georg Soros with J Street, because he has the financial capability of causing a reverse aliyah to places where former israelis wont be so inflammatory. With every passing day, the principles of New Judaism, namely Economic Justice, Social Justice, and the Right of Return of Endogenous Peoples, especiaaly the Palestinians become stronger at J Street<br />Amandla!!!!!!!!!!!!Rabbi Tony Jutnernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-47528862268552268972011-03-02T00:18:41.230+02:002011-03-02T00:18:41.230+02:00J Street’s "new way to be pro-Israel" is...J Street’s "new way to be pro-Israel" is to advocate positions which advance the comfort of J Street’s members in America at the expense of Israel. <br /><br />In Jeff Goldberg’s interview of Ben Ami in June, Ben Ami explained that J Street’s members’ stake in what happens is Israel derives from the fact that how Israel is perceived affects their lives and that the rift identified by Beinart between Israel and the Diaspora are better understood as the difference between those who view Israel as the most important thing in the world and those who do not (liberal Jews, including J Street). [http://israelpalestineblogs.com/2010/06/16/video-jeremy-ben-ami-jeffrey-goldberg/, 19 min and 44 min] <br /><br />J Street’s positions are driven by self-interest, not a love of Israel.Saul Liebermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07399120227171316267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-50282680295833571952011-03-01T23:27:48.183+02:002011-03-01T23:27:48.183+02:00Wer zählt die Anons, nennt die Namen, die gastlich...Wer zählt die Anons, nennt die Namen, die gastlich? hier zusammen kamen (Schiller: Die Kraniche des Ibykus) <br /><br /><br />roughly: who counts the Anons, tells their names who showed up as guests around hereSilkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16383345395827271854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-26969857624457378532011-03-01T23:16:45.399+02:002011-03-01T23:16:45.399+02:00Why bother with those types? They enjoy their role...Why bother with those types? They enjoy their role of alter-jews, the attention and approval they get. That´s their pathetic ego-trip.Sérgionoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-86158842563581417632011-03-01T23:03:21.647+02:002011-03-01T23:03:21.647+02:00Let's all agree that J Street presents us with...Let's all agree that J Street presents us with "a new way to be pro-Israel." And leave it at that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-33301588838061234782011-03-01T22:20:06.138+02:002011-03-01T22:20:06.138+02:00This article is fraught with inaccuracies. Here...This article is fraught with inaccuracies. Here's a few, just to clear up the air:<br /><br />Kosher meals were certainly available at the Gala dinner and anyway the reg. meal was vegetarian.<br /><br />Your analysis of J Street based on an old NYT article is inaccurate as J Street now has over 50 staffers.<br /><br />Members of Congress and Knesset were most certainly lauded (had you been there, you would have seen that - alas...).<br /><br />And in terms of venue and the bone you pick with regards to the size - you're really getting in the weeds here. The 2000 folks who attended had a blast and felt part of a true community scene - there were nearly as many people as the AJC's General Assembly. So it doesn't matter that it was at the gigantic Washington Convention Center because the J Street conference was a smashing success.<br /><br />Wish you could have joined us for it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com