tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post7063340645838840271..comments2024-01-01T01:47:59.449+02:00Comments on Yaacov Lozowick's Ruminations: Response to Naomi PaissYaacovhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12835192312242961481noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-89725078577081176462010-02-10T13:34:36.495+02:002010-02-10T13:34:36.495+02:00it looks like Michael Oren in the US is not faring...it looks like Michael Oren in the US is not faring much better than Daniel Ayalon in Britain<br />Silke <br /><br />http://jeffreygoldberg.theatlantic.com/archives/2010/02/the_middle_east_comes_to_irvin.phpAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-6004633289924123192010-02-10T12:19:57.634+02:002010-02-10T12:19:57.634+02:00If anyone wants a bit of a chuckle I'd recomme...If anyone wants a bit of a chuckle I'd recommend reading the link that Alex gave above. Take an open mind to it and see it for what it is... a pitiful attempt at rebutting an argument that I find quite humorous. It really is that bad. <br /><br />(Notes before reading it... of the Israeli sources mentioned, who made actual submissions to the Goldstone mob and who didn't. Why are the NGOs submissions about issues other than Cast Lead being excluded by the author when the Goldstone report included them... and so on)Gavinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-36218933293878451882010-02-10T11:37:48.713+02:002010-02-10T11:37:48.713+02:00about Daniel Ayalon
I wanted to find a video of th...about Daniel Ayalon<br />I wanted to find a video of the LSE event mentioned above, there is none, but I found this mind-blowing remark - Limited!!! I wonder under which circumstances they'd be willing to upgrade to extensive!!! which would still be an understatement.<br />Silke<br /><br />"There was a limited amount of barricking of the speaker during this event, we apologise if this spoils your enjoyment of the recording."<br />scroll down: http://www.lse.ac.uk/resources/podcasts/publicLecturesAndEvents.htm#generated-subheading5Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-48572820174605537172010-02-10T11:28:07.222+02:002010-02-10T11:28:07.222+02:00Barry Meislin and all of you
in case somebody wan...Barry Meislin and all of you<br /><br />in case somebody wants to hear live the amount of heckling going on when Daniel Ayalon speaks: here he is at the London School of Economics on October 26, 2009 - the clamour only quieted down somewhat after the host declared that he understood the grievances of the hecklers or even - if my memory is correct - that he sympathized with them. Free Speech - phew!!!<br />and if somebody wants a real good piece on how destructive bad manners can get and how helpless polite society reacts I recommend Mark Twain on the subject (second link)<br />Silke<br /><br />http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?i=62418693&id=279428154<br /><br /> http://www.h-net.org/~habsweb/sourcetexts/twain1.htmAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-795401921743184492010-02-10T10:58:44.769+02:002010-02-10T10:58:44.769+02:00And in case one has, as seems the case, forgotten....And in case one has, as seems the case, forgotten...or really wants to go that extra mile to forget:<br /><br />http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/5764076/from-enlightenment-into-darkness-at-oxford-and-cambridge.thtmlBarry Meislinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04795125774426217113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-65480140646613054432010-02-10T10:49:51.492+02:002010-02-10T10:49:51.492+02:00Here's that link:
http://www.theaugeanstables...Here's that link:<br /><br />http://www.theaugeanstables.com/2010/02/09/anthony-lawson-on-gaza-comments-please/Barry Meislinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04795125774426217113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-41118542680906778942010-02-10T10:44:06.377+02:002010-02-10T10:44:06.377+02:00Related, alas... to this "discussion."<a href="http://www.theaugeanstables.com/2010/02/09/anthony-lawson-on-gaza-comments-please/" rel="nofollow">Related, alas...</a> to this "discussion."Barry Meislinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04795125774426217113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-1612635993296207192010-02-10T09:56:47.766+02:002010-02-10T09:56:47.766+02:00Jon
I am German, living in Germany
SilkeJon<br />I am German, living in Germany<br />SilkeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-373021259471239442010-02-10T08:43:29.082+02:002010-02-10T08:43:29.082+02:00http://coteret.com/2010/02/10/fact-checking-the-an...http://coteret.com/2010/02/10/fact-checking-the-anti-nif-report-systematic-omission-and-distortion-of-data/Alex Steinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07051471861165324475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-83589511987767870652010-02-10T08:43:27.622+02:002010-02-10T08:43:27.622+02:00http://coteret.com/2010/02/10/fact-checking-the-an...http://coteret.com/2010/02/10/fact-checking-the-anti-nif-report-systematic-omission-and-distortion-of-data/Alex Steinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07051471861165324475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-87258099181721602642010-02-10T01:55:34.207+02:002010-02-10T01:55:34.207+02:00Silke, I'm new; where are you from?Silke, I'm new; where are you from?Jonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-13686314758309490052010-02-10T00:46:59.607+02:002010-02-10T00:46:59.607+02:00there is something going on between The New Republ...there is something going on between The New Republic's Leon Wieseltier (who wrote something very nice about Ariel Sharon when the stroke hit him) and Andrew Sullivan. <br />I just read Wieseltier's 5 pages and I think he has a lot of points which may come in handy in this context here.<br /><br />But watch out: part I is as wieseltierish as Wieseltier can get - the fisking of Andrew Sullivan starts with part II and I like it except for one sentence: "... an occupation, which is terrible." As I have spent all my early years way into my twenties in an occupied or later on de facto occupied country. I assure you there was nothing terrible about it. When the Americans started leaving in numbers I felt very sorry for myself. <br /><br />BTW Sullivan and it seems his admirers are trying to counter Wieseltier's severe accusations by ridiculing him for being long winded and - well - wieseltierish.<br />But even if he is, on the whole I have less of a problem following him than normal and lots of what he brings up is damning, much harsher than all Yaacov and Jeffrey Goldberg have picked on over the months every now and then. <br /> <br />SilkeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-27861249764027600102010-02-10T00:39:24.336+02:002010-02-10T00:39:24.336+02:00Nycerbarb. In this context the difference between ...Nycerbarb. In this context the difference between allege and accuse is that the party making the statement must acknowledge that the claim is unproven, or may not be true, for it to be an allegation. An accusation is a statement of fact, and one only needs to ask... "Have these NGOs ever admitted that they might be wrong?". <br /><br />'Allegation' is being thrown around now in a desperate attempt to mitigate the claims made against the NGOs and NIF. "we weren't actually accusing Israel of anything, we were just bringing up stories that had been passed on to us and which need investigating". Unfortunately for those NGOs it is easily verified that the stories and claims were of their own creation, thereby making them entirely responsible for all the false claims which were made.<br /><br />The term 'allegation' should be struck from the debate. They were false accusations, pure & simple.<br /><br />GavinGavinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-49627744141283487262010-02-09T23:24:55.582+02:002010-02-09T23:24:55.582+02:00Nycerbarb
thanks for the compliment which I return...Nycerbarb<br />thanks for the compliment which I return with pleasure<br /><br />I agree that this bombardment with very one-sided Israel depictions doesn't make any difference to people who have a belief. But there are lots and lots, in fact probably the majority, who don't care one way or another. But then one day they will have to vote on something and then it will matter which view is most familiar to them.<br /><br />Also I grant that Israel may not expect much from the European Union but to keep the majority of their voters at least closer to neutral is desirable. As I read more and more often that Germany has become a player again that matters (I was very content living in a country that had to keep mostly mum) and that it is a heavy weight within the EU I am worried that we the people get educated in such a - besides everything else - stupidly biased way.<br /><br />For example the Goldstone Report was "promoted" by an obviously not only in years very old man who had survived the camps - he said terrible things but on the other hand you can't expect everybody who had to go through those horrors to remain level-headed so, while I felt truly sorry for him I would have liked to throw piles of invectives at the people who paraded him as a poster-man for their cause.<br />SilkeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-57868463074221771922010-02-09T22:31:31.336+02:002010-02-09T22:31:31.336+02:00I just got to see the Im Tirzu print ad. The text...I just got to see the Im Tirzu print ad. The text reads:<br /><br />"Fact! Without the New Israel Fund, there could be no Goldstone Report, and Israel would not be facing international accusations of war crimes"<br /><br />..And they got excited about the horn?! The horn looks like a party hat in the drawing! The graphic is just pointless (pun intended)!<br /><br />My point is Israel has no shortage of accusers. The ad states an opinion, not a fact, -- and I say it's an opinion that would be difficult to support. (that's my opinion.)<br /><br />Now, the ad also states:<br /><br />"Major NIF organizations signed a letter calling on Britain to prosecute senior IDF officers for war crimes."<br /><br />Here is something really specific we can look into and judge its truth. If it is true, than NIF has something to answer for regarding these organizations.<br /><br />Silke -<br />I agree that an opinion from an Israeli can sound more damning than a non-Israeli one. But I also think people believe what they want to believe. (BTW, I always appreciate your comments on this blog.)<br /><br />NycerbarbAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-82269294476150607542010-02-09T22:19:33.074+02:002010-02-09T22:19:33.074+02:00For the record, a comprehensive list of controvers...For the record, <a href="http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/nif_funded_ngos_goldstone_s_building_blocks" rel="nofollow">a comprehensive list</a> of controversial activities attributed to NIF and its grantees, courtesy of the NGO Monitor.Avigdorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05008730229882004376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-36925481428620639582010-02-09T21:58:37.876+02:002010-02-09T21:58:37.876+02:00I had a creative moment and posted my take on the ...I had a creative moment and posted my take on the NIF problem on Engage http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2010/02/07/stand-up-for-nif-stand-up-for-israeli-democracy/#comment-8804. I'd love to hear what people think.Judithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01222238421273392904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-34517134920177913062010-02-09T21:54:42.470+02:002010-02-09T21:54:42.470+02:00Nycerbarb
the radio pieces accompanying the presen...Nycerbarb<br />the radio pieces accompanying the presentation of the Goldstone report in my country hammered me with Israel did this and Israel did that and even this and that Israeli voice said it, so that by implication Hamas looked like the good boys the desperate freedom fighters with the under the circumstances impeccable behaviour.<br /><br />- now I am retired I have the time to check up on what I get told by serious radio pieces. When I was still working and when there was no internet yet I had hardly a chance. I didn't believe the slandering even then but that was based on pure probability assessments and therefore chance was that I might have been wrong <br /><br />- I wasn't wrong of course and reporting around the last Lebanon war told me that the situation is a lot more dire than I had imagined i.e. the slanderers more brazen and more inventive<br /><br />that's why I believe it matters who is quoted in the Goldstone report and who vouches for it and who presents it to a mostly unsuspecting public.<br />SilkeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-66546816697155004302010-02-09T21:46:01.668+02:002010-02-09T21:46:01.668+02:00Akus -
The problem was in the title, not the url ...Akus -<br /><br />The problem was in the title, not the url which is unimportant so long as it's stable.<br /><br />Anonymous -<br /><br />While I sometimes respond to anonymous questions, your case would be stronger if you stood behind it with a name (or explained why not, see Akus).Yaacovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12835192312242961481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-41838804647378767652010-02-09T21:38:35.105+02:002010-02-09T21:38:35.105+02:00Yaacov,
"Two sorts of enemies"? In a de...Yaacov,<br />"Two sorts of enemies"? In a democracy, people who have different sorts of visions for how the state should define itself aren't "enemies of the state", but rather free citizens engaged in democratic discourse. Are datiim who want a halachic state "enemies"? Are secular Israelis who want a liberal democracy "enemies"? Are non-zionist haredim "enemies"? Your definition of "enemy" is an extremely dangerous one for a democracy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-89992120806322661272010-02-09T21:30:56.730+02:002010-02-09T21:30:56.730+02:002 Thoughts:
1) How do you distinguish between &qu...2 Thoughts:<br /><br />1) How do you distinguish between "false accusations" and "allegations that turn out to be untrue."? I guess you have to look at the nature of the claim and claimant. Is there a basis or probable cause? What is the claimant's motivation and agenda? How was this information obtained? Does the claimant cherry pick or selectively interpret? Are they truly "reasoned and thoughtful"? (Naomi Paiss' words) <br /><br />It seems to me, that this type of review should constantly be done. Is it wrong to ask NIF to look at who they are funding critically? Can Im Tirzu make a case that these NGOs act with bad intentions or irresponsibly? Can NIF make a case that they didn't? Are any of the groups funded by the NIF truly out to undermine the existence of the Jewish State?<br /><br />2) Invective. Why do people use it? It spoils the discussion and it makes the speaker look foolish. Stewart Ain wrote a piece about the NIF/Im Tirzu "Brouhaha" in the Jewish Week. Ain quotes Im Tirzu founder Ronen Shoval as saying the human rights groups, and by extension NIF money, "are helping Hamas." Ain also quoted the report as saying "that without the NIF funded NGOs' reports 'Goldstone would have nothing to base most of the claims' he made against Israel." <br /><br />Does anyone really believe that given the source and composition of Goldstone's committee, if there were no NGOs' reports, the committee's outcome would be any different? Does anyone seriously think that Hamas needs the help of the Goldstone report? Does anyone think that if Goldstone didn't have the NGOs' reports, the committee would have written a report saying Israel behaved perfectly during the war? And with such a report, Hamas would be convinced of the errors of their ways and decided to make peace with Israel?<br /><br />Ain also quotes Naomi Paiss as saying ridiculous things, too. "Had that [an independent inquiry into the events of Gaza], perhaps there would not have been a Goldstone report." First, does Paiss have a basis for saying the IDF investigation is insufficient? If so, what is it? Second, would the UN have accepted any Israeli investigation? I think there would have been a Goldstone report, regardless.<br /><br />Ain also quotes Paiss as saying there is a "coordinated attempt to delegitimize Israeli civil society and repress human rights groups and tolerance for dissent and honesty." "We think it's a suppression of free speech and that they want the human rights community in Israel to be defunded and defeated."<br /><br />Wow! Well, what words does she have left to describe the situation in Iran or China? I think a little perspective is called for.<br /><br />NycerbarbAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-59210137020788212942010-02-09T21:16:51.221+02:002010-02-09T21:16:51.221+02:00Yakov:
I think you are being asked if you can rep...Yakov:<br /><br />I think you are being asked if you can repost with the spelling of "response" in the URL corrected?<br /><br />http://yaacovlozowick.blogspot.com/2010/02/respnse-to-naomi-piass.html<br /><br />should be (I assume):<br /><br />http://yaacovlozowick.blogspot.com/2010/02/response-to-naomi-piass.htmlAKUSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-82706373212727712442010-02-09T19:13:49.278+02:002010-02-09T19:13:49.278+02:00Yaacov -
What a wonderful,clarifying, excellent p...Yaacov -<br /><br />What a wonderful,clarifying, excellent post. Thanks for all the effort you put in. And thanks for returning us to rational discourse.<br />I will try to write something a little later.<br /><br />NycerbarbAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-21428123656956977442010-02-09T19:08:12.455+02:002010-02-09T19:08:12.455+02:00here is NIF's staff - Naomi Paiss comes top at...here is NIF's staff - Naomi Paiss comes top at Communications, Ben Murane may be found under "New York" - so it looks like this blog has been "promoted"<br />SilkeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-40621773259442180142010-02-09T18:59:08.375+02:002010-02-09T18:59:08.375+02:00one more typo which may be bad on Google besides V...one more typo which may be bad on Google besides Victor's Respnse should be Response <br />its not Ben Muranke it's Ben Murane<br />Silke<br />and thanks a lot of that postAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com