tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post7852584533472492564..comments2024-01-01T01:47:59.449+02:00Comments on Yaacov Lozowick's Ruminations: Do the Palestinians of Jerusalem Prefer to be Israelis?Yaacovhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12835192312242961481noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-66937709086121614832011-01-16T22:20:20.827+02:002011-01-16T22:20:20.827+02:00Yaffeh, RK. I like it.Yaffeh, RK. I like it.Yaacovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12835192312242961481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-70470680877149615272011-01-16T22:11:17.517+02:002011-01-16T22:11:17.517+02:00Lee, as you might expect, the limits of Jerusalem ...Lee, as you might expect, the limits of Jerusalem are the subject of involved halakhic debate. In some sense, there are different "boundaries" for different purposes: for instance, one opinion states that the boundaries of Jerusalem with respect to celebrating Shushan Purim includes areas that are perceived as being part of Jerusalem, even if they aren't within the strict limits.<br /><br />Even if we limit the question strictly to which parts of Jerusalem have kedushah, or holiness, the answer is complex. Several Rishonim hold that the answer is none of it, either because the sanctity "expired" since the time of Ezra (the Ra'avad) or because it was subsequently invaded by Gentiles (the Ramban). Others hold that the sanctification of Jerusalem was permanent (the Rambam) or that Israeli sovereignty over Jerusalem restored its holiness (R. Yitzchak Schmelkes).<br /><br />If the sanctity of Jerusalem persists, the next question is how far it extends. As you mentioned, ancient Jerusalem was largely, but not exclusively, limited to the Old City. The city's very holiness made expanding its limits a serious affair: the Rambam, in Bet Habechirah 6:12, describes the process after noting that it required the combination of the Sanhedrin, the king, the prophet, and the Urim and Thummim. Assuming that's the case, expanding the city limits would obviously be impossible today, and thus many modern authorities like Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach rule that most of the modern municipality falls outside the halakhic boundaries of Jerusalem.<br /><br />Anyway, I want to emphasize that this just addresses (very superficially) the halakhic aspects of the question, and not the role Greater Jerusalem plays in the collective Jewish memory, or its importance to Jewish Israelis. Even if the Mount of Olives, for example, isn't "in Jerusalem" in the halakhic sense, its role in Jewish history over the centuries is just as ancient. Recall that before the destruction of the First Temple, the shekhinah departed from the city of Jerusalem to the Mount of Olives, an episode which emphasizes both its separateness and its significance.RKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-8259127220343532042011-01-16T22:02:18.241+02:002011-01-16T22:02:18.241+02:00We love you, too, Tony!We love you, too, Tony!Yaacovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12835192312242961481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-43042354058330104152011-01-16T21:44:18.480+02:002011-01-16T21:44:18.480+02:00Your opinion of these polls are naive. The Palesti...Your opinion of these polls are naive. The Palestinians that you are selectively quoting (E Jerusalem Arabs and so called Israeli Arabs) are merely acting as guardians of the property you stole from them in 1948. Of course they want to have close supervision, so they are rejecting your "offer" to give them Palestinian citizenship. When you give them back everything that you stole, they will reject "israeli citizenship" because there will be nothing leftRabbi Tony Jutnernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-24316046336515739622011-01-15T18:47:31.067+02:002011-01-15T18:47:31.067+02:00But, of course, that's precisely the point.
I...But, of course, that's precisely the point.<br /><br />If Israel can't be destroyed one way, then one must try another. And if that doesn't work out as well as it was supposed to, then one, resourceful as ever, must try a third. And then a fourth.<i>Ad infinitum.</i><br /><br />(Or should that be, <i>ad finitum</i>?)<br /><br />File under: "Until victory"?Barry Meislinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04795125774426217113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-4899130347290947182011-01-15T13:24:23.516+02:002011-01-15T13:24:23.516+02:00And if all the west bank and Gaza want to be in Is...And if all the west bank and Gaza want to be in Israel would you agree?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-79843689393505148722011-01-14T05:31:03.928+02:002011-01-14T05:31:03.928+02:00Was there not a tragic incident, about 10 or so ye...Was there not a tragic incident, about 10 or so years ago, of an East Jerusalem man circulating a petition among Arabs wishing to not become part of a Palestinian state but wishing to stay in Israel, and the man was shot?<br /><br />NycerbarbAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-3550742477425677802011-01-13T23:50:38.800+02:002011-01-13T23:50:38.800+02:00Well, Lee it's a good question and there's...Well, Lee it's a good question and there's no clear answer. I'd say, however, following others, that the emotional connection is to what's sometimes called the Holy Basin: the area from Mt Scopus in the north to Government House in the south, from the Mount of Olives in the east to the edge of the Old City in the West. Therefore, when Yossie Beilin used to tell us that by handing that entire area (minus the Jewish Quarter) to the Palestinians we'd be winning, because we'd end up with most of Jerusalem on our side, we asked ourselves if he was the dunce, or he thought all the rest of us were.Yaacovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12835192312242961481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-41788899863654788402011-01-13T23:41:27.756+02:002011-01-13T23:41:27.756+02:00I have an unrelated question about Jerusalem that ...I have an unrelated question about Jerusalem that I always meant to ask but never had the oppportunity. Jerusalem is defined as a holy city along with Hebron, Tiberias, and Safed. However, what constitutes Jerusalem has changed over the centuries. Modern Jerusalem contains places that were considered to be in the boonies during the Second Temple period. So when we say that Jerusalem is holy, what do we exactly mean is holy? If the Knesset enlarges the municipal borders of Jerusalem, do the new areas become holy?Lee Ratnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08139895689217213860noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-14156326273111002792011-01-13T20:54:07.365+02:002011-01-13T20:54:07.365+02:00The Arabs may hate Israel but they don't want ...The Arabs may hate Israel but they don't want to live under Arab rule.<br /><br />I'd say its a safe bet Jerusalem will never be re-divided again.NormanFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03365459073293643108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-90661187268470204142011-01-13T18:15:12.046+02:002011-01-13T18:15:12.046+02:00why not also demant that the Arab citizens are a b...why not also demant that the Arab citizens are a bit more demonstrative in their love for Israel?Silkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16383345395827271854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-71638598055806159952011-01-13T17:44:45.656+02:002011-01-13T17:44:45.656+02:00If the conditions are right, Israel should demand ...If the conditions are right, Israel should demand a referendum. Which fair-minded democrat would object to that?<br /><br />Otherwise, Israel should assert its hold over Jerusalem and make efforts to make its arab citizens more welcome.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-6973511834998286932011-01-13T17:19:38.009+02:002011-01-13T17:19:38.009+02:00Silly question.
The answer to that is: exactly wh...Silly question.<br /><br />The answer to that is: exactly what was done to the good men and women of the village of Al-Ghajjar (on the Lebanese border) will be done to them.<br /><br />(Unless this time, Israel puts its foot done. But should that happen, such "brazen intransigence" will be interpreted by the usual suspects, which at that moment in the future will be practically everyone around the globe, as a declaration of war against....the world. Regarding the well-being of the Palestinians, what is more important---really now? That some Palestinians might not get what they want? Or that the Zionist Entity is obliterated?)Barry Meislinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04795125774426217113noreply@blogger.com