tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post8431602329277361785..comments2024-01-01T01:47:59.449+02:00Comments on Yaacov Lozowick's Ruminations: Flare-Up 0f Violence, Cont'dYaacovhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12835192312242961481noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-12735879160042964452009-12-29T22:08:25.315+02:002009-12-29T22:08:25.315+02:00If Israel had the death penalty, human life would ...If Israel had the death penalty, human life would have more value. Ironically enough, the liquidation of the terrorists is reason enough for Israel to adopt the death penalty. Murder is too severe a crime to be rewarded with Club Med style accommodations in Israeli prisons and life in prison in Israel as every intelligent Israeli knows is a joke. Those who murder Jews receive no real punishment for their crimes.NormanFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03365459073293643108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-86786417131609304972009-12-28T01:09:12.430+02:002009-12-28T01:09:12.430+02:00I'm dialing it back about 80% for the holidays...I'm dialing it back about 80% for the holidays, and Yaacov has busted in to, like, 10th gear this Sunday. I'm a shamed blogger.<br /><br />Along with his link in the comments to the previous post, Silke didn't point out who the reviewer is for that NY Times Book Review of Footnotes in Gaza: Patrick Cockburn, multi-award winning journalist, indeed, but with a long track record on this subject, and regular contributor to his brother Alexander's very anti-Israeli CounterPunch, which has publishe Robert Fisk, Edward Said, Tariq Ali, Ward Churchill, Noam Chomsky, and Norman Finkelstein, among others.<br /><br />The review promotes the notion that Palestinian "anger" has roots that only go back as far as 1956 and those massacres that apparently, for Cockburn, have no counterparts to go with the counter punch.<br /><br />The Times gets the review it pays for in the reviewer it selects. Why not offer the assignment to Marwan Barghouti. I'm sure he can always use the money.<br /><br />Israel could certainly use better PR, as Gavin suggests, and I'm all for the effort, but as Yaacov is regularly demonstrating, along with others like Richard Landes at the Augean Stables, the psychological and ideological roots of the current situation are profoundly deep, and go beyond Israel, and will be long time in changing.A. Jay Adlerhttp://sadredearth.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-49015207044636504512009-12-27T19:49:22.744+02:002009-12-27T19:49:22.744+02:00Gavin,
Believe it or not, I agree with you. I jus...Gavin,<br /><br />Believe it or not, I agree with you. I just think you vastly overestimate the political abilities of Israeli politicians. Remember, the Israeli "elite" is operating very far away from all this, in a completely different world of politics and diplomatic relations. They probably had nothing to do with planning, authorizing or directing this operation at all. All that was done by 21-25 year olds whose main priority was getting home to their girlfriends and wives that night. It was approved by the division commander, someone in his late thirties or early forties, with no political experience.<br /><br />At most, the Defense minister received an update with his evening tea that IDF is going in Area A, and then moved on to more important tasks, like making sure Bibi doesn't sideline Labor's portfolio by breaking Kadima in half and reassigning all the cabinet positions.<br /><br />Who knows what really happened. Maybe the PA gave the IDF the coordinates for these three and begged the IDF to kill them to set an example. This way the PA would not look like total Israeli pawns, and Fayaad can go denounce the operation while in the back everyone giggles. That's probably how Palestinians on the ground see it anyway.<br /><br />All this is fine. The bottom line is, despite removing all those checkpoints, despite vast improvements in the Palestinian economy, despite training a Palestinian army, despite the settlement freeze... it did not slow down for an instant the desire of three Palestinian men with a gun to kill a Jew, any Jew. And if there were five Jews, they would have killed five. In fact, I would argue that all these factors precipitated this attack. Go and prove me wrong.Avigdorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05008730229882004376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-13849235724796322562009-12-27T16:02:34.519+02:002009-12-27T16:02:34.519+02:00Gavin
in general I am very much for trying the imp...Gavin<br />in general I am very much for trying the impossible again and again but not in a situation where, judging from the pictures Dr. Lozowick posted and our village fantasizing about urban guerilla warfare, it will be a question of life or death or injury for IDF-lers <br /><br />- letting the Palestinian forces in there to just arrest in the hope of exposing their bias would most likely have led to all kinds of unmanageable flare ups with dire consequences for the IDF who would have had to clear it up afterwards anyway.<br /><br />To change world perception of Israel as the evil giant a movie at least on the scale of "Uncle Tom's cabin" is required, i.e. IMO anything rational is not going to change anything <br /><br />- remember there were those hauting videos of kindergarden-kids running for shelter in Sderot. That was a rational way of trying to create empathy for a very real plight. <br />Did it help? <br />Even though I found it was good for creating favourable reactions in talking to neighbours but the media didn't care a hoot, they kept going on their time-honoured safe path - when Israel went against Gaza I at least didn't see any reminders of the plight of toddlers in Sderot.<br /><br />rgds,<br />SilkeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-33192991251293714542009-12-27T15:19:08.369+02:002009-12-27T15:19:08.369+02:00Common sense tells me you're right Silke, but ...Common sense tells me you're right Silke, but the salesman in me keeps telling me that even from adversity one can turn opportunities into advantages. But then I wasn't much of a salesman anyway.<br /><br />Don't read too much into my raves folks. When I read about situations like this I get depressed at the inevitability of what will follow & sometimes I'm just thinking aloud here. I think it's bad that all three were killed because it looks bad for Israel. I don't personally care about them, they were callous cold blooded murderers & deserve no sympathy. But if only one, or two, had been killed then the inevitable media smears on Israel would be a little less harsh. We can all easily predict how the headlines will read, and it is a bit depressing that Israel will come out looking like the bad guy once again.<br /><br />I'd really like to see Israel start winning the propaganda war, and I'm ever the optimist so I don't give up hope that they can't do it. They're not winning now so the most obvious conclusion is that the tactics need to be changed. <br /><br />Regards, GavinGavinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-40272440212225617152009-12-27T14:59:46.189+02:002009-12-27T14:59:46.189+02:00@Gavin
judging from my experience with office feud...@Gavin<br />judging from my experience with office feuds once a party has been labelled the stronger one no amount of exposing the perfidities of the slanderers is going to remedy anything.<br /><br />therefore in my perception the only way out would be to present Israel as the David in the scenario and that would mean to write up its vulnerabilities which would have its own draw-backs. That's why I perceive it as a terrible Catch 22.<br /><br />i.e. in my experience the public mood always always always goes with the party who manages to present itself as the weak one. Probably makes onlookers feel oh so virtuous and commiserating seems to be a deeply satisfying occupation (who doesnÄt like a good cry in a movie) they seem to prefer that even if it should be in their vital and very rational interest to side with the strong party. They'll switch sides only when they are threatened themselves and the formerly maligned strong party seems to be promising that it could provide protection.<br /><br />rgds,<br />SilkeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-31148138705538364492009-12-27T13:40:42.293+02:002009-12-27T13:40:42.293+02:00Thanks for the explanation Yaacov. Where I was exp...Thanks for the explanation Yaacov. Where I was exploring was the possible opportunities for Israel to turn this into a win/win scenario... to gain in more ways than one.<br /><br />I'd ask people this. Might it not be possible for Israel to shape the political battlefield. To take advantage of situations like this; force the PA into a corner where they have no options but to A/ comply with the law and arrest, prosecute & jail/hang the killers or B/ reveal publicly on the international stage their perfidy & treachery.<br /><br />Situations like this are fertile ground for politics because you already know what the PA will do. It's predictable, so you can prepare the trap and let them walk right into it. <br /><br />You guys in the firing line know what the PA etc are really like, but the rest of us very rarely see the physical proof of it. It's no good Israel telling the world what the PA is like, they won't believe you. The world needs to see it for themselves. To my mind Israel lets them off the hook all the time by not backing them into a corner politically. When there's a chance to expose their treachery then I reckon it's not a bad idea to take it (?)<br /><br />Cheers, GavinGavinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-7052645602993243982009-12-27T13:29:27.130+02:002009-12-27T13:29:27.130+02:00what a terrifying location to have to operate in
...what a terrifying location to have to operate in<br /><br />once the US-Army came into our little farmers' village of 300 inhabitants to practice urban warfare<br /><br /> - it made us aware and we talked kind of horrified of all the places where one could comfortably hide there and outsmart soldiers especially if they were forced to fight "fair" and not allowed to flatten the whole thing <br />remembering that makes me shudder looking at these photos <br />rgds,<br />SilkeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com