tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post326110183918055780..comments2024-01-01T01:47:59.449+02:00Comments on Yaacov Lozowick's Ruminations: The Futility of the HistorianYaacovhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12835192312242961481noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-13620166599237988632011-03-24T12:12:24.497+02:002011-03-24T12:12:24.497+02:00Thanks, Yaacov. I look forward to it once you...Thanks, Yaacov. I look forward to it once you've had a chance to read the 2nd half of Hourani. JonathanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-82557564110184031602011-03-23T21:08:57.824+02:002011-03-23T21:08:57.824+02:00For me as a non-academic pieces like Morris' r...For me as a non-academic pieces like Morris' review are extremely useful because we need to be taught how to read those books so we can better make up our own minds.<br /><br />Each such "nit-picking" piece empowers me more to trust my own mind and check what I am told for plausibility by simply relating to my own life experiences. Does it synch or doesn't it. <br /><br />I wish there were lots of academics who'd make it their job to teach and lectures the likes of me.Silkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16383345395827271854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-31387582562236249942011-03-23T19:52:04.385+02:002011-03-23T19:52:04.385+02:00Ah, see you spotted the flaw in her argument.... ...Ah, see you spotted the flaw in her argument.... Of course one could also argue whether he was actually talking about expelling arabs - she was actually talking about his Iron Wall speech from the 20s - and whether he was all that influential on Yishuv policy in 1947-48 but that would be a debate. The fact he coudn't have given the speech was pronounced as "desparation", not that it stopped her saying exactly the same thing in her book.<br /><br />DannyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-12707212597394593312011-03-23T19:31:26.790+02:002011-03-23T19:31:26.790+02:00Jabotinsky gave a speech in 1947? 7 years after he...Jabotinsky gave a speech in 1947? 7 years after he died? Wow. Those Zionists are AWESOME.Yaacovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12835192312242961481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-36953417178949559902011-03-23T18:55:31.972+02:002011-03-23T18:55:31.972+02:00The point about "nit-picking" is that th...The point about "nit-picking" is that these facts are black and white. In the book Morris talk about, Pappe claims there is this mysterious troika - the Commission - that met regularly and focused expelling arabs. He is misrepresenting a few meetings Ben Gurion has with - I think this is the correct name - Wiesskof or something similar. Of course they never led to anything and Mr W complained about this. But it is not open and shut and if you give these people a tiny opening....<br /><br />As a side note, even the black and white stuff they will still argue. I remember attending a talk by Jacqueline Rose were she quoted a speech by Jabotinsky about expelling arabs that he gave in 1947(sic).<br /><br />DannydAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-25343580137214643322011-03-23T15:36:39.066+02:002011-03-23T15:36:39.066+02:00For the record, I have read it and it wasn't b...For the record, I have read it and it wasn't bad. What I actually remember most was the flowery English that, in my opinion, distracted from clarity and conciseness. Well, what would you expect from a writer? But it didn't come across to me as propaganda, although I felt his descriptions of the modern era suffered from convenient factual omissions. Oh, maybe that was propaganda? ;) The earlier chapters were definitely stronger.Morey Altmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15886157582583010411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-77791507139011010932011-03-23T15:20:06.520+02:002011-03-23T15:20:06.520+02:00Jonathan - that's not fair. Bloggers aren'...Jonathan - that's not fair. Bloggers aren't supposed to expect readers to remember their chatter, and certainly not to be asked about things they wrote last week :~)<br /><br />Actually, I also saw that in the Morris article. I've been sidetracked in my reading of Hourani by all sorts of other books, but will get back to him soon (hopefully). The first half I read, which dealt with the early centuries of Islam, had lots of good feelings about its subject matter, but didn't seem like propaganda; it looked solid to me. The tricker part still lies ahead, and I'll comment on it once I get there.Yaacovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12835192312242961481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-340374305789543682011-03-23T14:57:03.859+02:002011-03-23T14:57:03.859+02:00Thanks for the link to this Morris review which I&...Thanks for the link to this Morris review which I've read with interest.<br /><br />One point Morris mentions in passing is that Hourani, the late Oxford historian, had earlier been a "spokeman" for al-Husseini which I didn't know.<br /><br />I seem to remember from a recent post that you're actually reading Hourani's classic HISTORY OF THE ARAB PEOPLES at present. <br /><br />So I'd be keen, Yaacov, to find out how you're finding it.<br /><br />Jonathan<br /><br />JG CampbellAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-7785131265792335162011-03-23T11:19:00.756+02:002011-03-23T11:19:00.756+02:00Not just Illan Pappe, unfortunately. The overwhelm...Not just Illan Pappe, unfortunately. The overwhelming sense I have is that Pappe and his ilk are either delusional or willful liars; I try not to take either seriously. Apparently sanity and honesty are no longer important criteria in historicity or rational discourse.Morey Altmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15886157582583010411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-2030345883561634982011-03-23T10:41:04.503+02:002011-03-23T10:41:04.503+02:00Ben-David, I also agree with you. It is like the ...Ben-David, I also agree with you. It is like the claim that the people saying the interviewees didn't say what Katz said they said were simply nitpicking and they differences were very small. Well, technically the change to"I saw with my own eyes..." from "I didn't see with my eyes..." and "People were killed after the battle..." from "No one was killed after the battle..." are changes of a word here and there.<br /><br />Also anti-zionists and anti-americans pretty much dominate the field of Modern Middle East history which pretty much has withered away as a field with the odd decent historian here and there but since Said they don't need to bother with the "fetishing" of facts, which is lucky because in MME it is particularly hard due to the languages involved, borders and difficulty accessing archives.<br /><br />Yaacov, the reason it sounds like nit-picking is because Morris has to pick things that are simply factually untrue otherwise he'll get into a morass of well this means that and this means this.<br /><br />DannyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-58905507284762706782011-03-23T07:39:19.775+02:002011-03-23T07:39:19.775+02:00I read Morris' piece. I wouldn't describe ...I read Morris' piece. I wouldn't describe it as "nit-picking". For a professor of history not to know that the British advanced to Damascus in World War I is pretty damning, after all, anyone who has seen the movie "Lawrence of Arabia" knows that. That fact serves as a base for much of the conflict that came later in the Middle East.<br />What I found especially interesting is that Morris admits that anti-Zionists have come to dominate large parts of academia in Israel.<br />This leads me the think Orwell was right in his book "1984"....our only hope lies in the "proles"...the common people, the solid Jews of Israel.Y. Ben-Davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-16663832044250557972011-03-22T20:49:38.349+02:002011-03-22T20:49:38.349+02:00Your post reminds me of
Richard Evans' very i...Your post reminds me of <br />Richard Evans' very interesting book "Telling lies about Hitler" about the hard work of exposing David Irving's lies.<br />It also shows how the "little" errors are actually lies, that can be quite significant.shmuelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-52734528634232447152011-03-22T19:21:44.043+02:002011-03-22T19:21:44.043+02:00That is why there are libel laws. Pappe is based ...That is why there are libel laws. Pappe is based in the UK where they have the strongest libel laws in the West. A court is where this stuff belongs.<br /><br />DannyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-83338632420913363142011-03-22T18:35:02.176+02:002011-03-22T18:35:02.176+02:00Amen.
And it is not just historians. It is regul...Amen.<br /><br />And it is not just historians. It is regular Joe's who spout off about the middle east, too. They provide partial quotes or outright lies. And you have to respond. It is terrible.<br /><br />NycerbarbAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-48827015637304520122011-03-22T18:28:04.845+02:002011-03-22T18:28:04.845+02:00But Barry, it worked out so well for the Tsars...
...But Barry, it worked out so well for the Tsars...<br /><br />Speaking of which I see Bibi gave back Sergei's courtyard to the Russians. I hope he got something more than vague promises for it.<br />Yes, I know...<br />http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4045461,00.html<br /><br />T34Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-56057241632471802372011-03-22T18:10:03.634+02:002011-03-22T18:10:03.634+02:00Breaking!!
The French have solemnly declared, whi...Breaking!!<br /><br />The French have solemnly declared, while one failed Arab state after another is self-destructing before the eyes of the world (not that anyone is really noticing, mind you), that another failed Arab state, called "Palestine" (or maybe that should be "Palestine A" and "Palestine B" (like Degania?), or "Palestine East" and "Palestine West"?---must absolutely be created this year, absolutely this year, Absolument, Sans Doute, Immediament et Maintenant!! <br /><br />http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=213294<br /><br />The French have also solemnly declared that they are very, very concerned about the escalation of hostilities between Israel and Hamas, this while they are bombing the crap out of Libya!!<br /><br />http://www.jpost.com/Defense/Article.aspx?id=213293<br /><br />(No, you really can't make this stuff up.)<br /><br />Of course, they are deadly serious. So much so that one can expect that they, with Obama's blessing, will threaten Israel with similar "inducements" should Bibi not agree to their humanitarian and progressive plans.<br /><br />"Enough is enough", they will declaim (as only the French can) with impressive exasperation.<br /><br />Assez!! Basta!! (Whatever.)<br /><br />(They must be having more trouble than they bargained for in Libya....)<br /><br />File under: "When all else fails, use the Jews."Barry Meislinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04795125774426217113noreply@blogger.com