tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post9154891655476682517..comments2024-01-01T01:47:59.449+02:00Comments on Yaacov Lozowick's Ruminations: Sacrifying to be JewishYaacovhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12835192312242961481noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-42047776624254385732011-03-15T14:57:26.333+02:002011-03-15T14:57:26.333+02:00Jon -
Since you're an actuary, you'll kno...Jon -<br /><br />Since you're an actuary, you'll know how to calculate the different costs of near-free schooling from pre-kindergarten thru high-school, and the substantially cheaper university fees in Israel, assuming you wish your children to have a Jewish education. Likewise the limited costs of reliable health insurance and pension plans.<br /><br />Having noted that, I didn't say salaries are higher in Israel. The ability to participate in or benefit from the explosive innovation economy in Israel is, however, better than anywhere in the US except for a few specific areas. The thousands of extraordinarily expensive luxury high-rise apartments being snatched up in Tel Aviv these past few years demonstrate that If Israelis want to be rich, their chances at home are as good as anywhere, if not better.Yaacovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12835192312242961481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-84757687241991304732011-03-15T05:29:14.865+02:002011-03-15T05:29:14.865+02:00Jon-
Let's face it, if your goal in life is to...Jon-<br />Let's face it, if your goal in life is to make as much money as possible, then it doesn't necessarily pay to move from the US to Israel. If your goal is to live as full a life as a Jew as possible, then your place is in Israel. In my case, there is no question that my standard of living would not be appreciably higher had I remained in the US. I would probably own a second car and my house would be somewhat larger than the apartment I have here in Israel, but here I really don't need a second car (I get free transportation to work like many workers in Israel do) and people manage in smaller accomodations. But had we remained in the US the tuition fees we would have faced would have been substantially higher and that would have eaten up any salary advantage I would have had there, and as I said above, I would have been paying for a grossly inferior education, at least in the Torah-Jewish Studies department.Y. Ben-Davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-20125842910806499702011-03-15T00:39:46.065+02:002011-03-15T00:39:46.065+02:00Yaacov -
As an actuary in the U.S, I'm promi...Yaacov - <br /><br />As an actuary in the U.S, I'm promised a median salary of $88k with room for 200% growth. (This is according to whichever newspaper it was that did the job-ranking thing - I think US News).<br /><br />In Israel, I can expect a salary between 10-18k₪ a month. This is apparently on a par with high-tech workers. (This information is from Nefesh B'Nefesh.) <br /><br />Assuming an exchange-rate of 3.5:1, that puts the high-end Israeli salary at the lower end of the Amrican range. <br /><br />I think you're being a bit too optimistic about the Israeli economy, and too pessimistic about the American one. <br /><br />If I'm wrong, please correct me - I'm not wandering around Nefesh B'Nefesh's site without a reason!Jonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-47421489776508692742011-03-14T19:19:57.311+02:002011-03-14T19:19:57.311+02:00I was more or less joking about earning a million ...I was more or less joking about earning a million before coming, although it was an actual suggestion made to me. A million dollars isn't what it used to be either... I mean, I wouldn't mind finding it on the side of the road, but...Avigdorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05008730229882004376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-42847167219617263002011-03-14T10:42:18.750+02:002011-03-14T10:42:18.750+02:00Victor-
Since we made aliyah 25 years ago, our exp...Victor-<br />Since we made aliyah 25 years ago, our experience is not relevant, although we came with less than 10% of the amount you stated. Housing is much more expensive today. Much depends on what you do for a living. But it is important to remember that for people with more than 4 or 5 children, the expenses of education are much higher in the US than in Israel, and Americans are paying for an inferior education, particularly in the Torah/Jewish studies realm.<br />Nefesh B'Nefesh is the best source of information.Y. Ben-Davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-24732542941754301932011-03-14T08:37:10.799+02:002011-03-14T08:37:10.799+02:00Actually, Victor, that may have been true in the 8...Actually, Victor, that may have been true in the 80s. It isn't anymore. Arguably, with the two economies in their respective conditions, it might even be the other way around.Yaacovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12835192312242961481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-68105309995362367512011-03-14T00:52:04.974+02:002011-03-14T00:52:04.974+02:00Yaacov: Please delete my last two posts, as well. ...Yaacov: Please delete my last two posts, as well. My apologies for loading on the work.Bryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09099017972456573744noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-43365727469558222892011-03-13T19:29:06.248+02:002011-03-13T19:29:06.248+02:00we need idealistic Jews like Victor here in Israel...<i>we need idealistic Jews like Victor here in Israel!</i><br /><br />An Israeli told me to make a million dollars in America first, and only then make aliyah. But if I want to live comfortably for a few years, he recommended coming with four million dollars.Avigdorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05008730229882004376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-32182384983829535612011-03-13T11:42:54.644+02:002011-03-13T11:42:54.644+02:00Yaacov-
Please delete those two last comments. I d...Yaacov-<br />Please delete those two last comments. I do feel this discussion is worthwhile, as uncomfortable as it may have been for him. To tell the truth, we need idealistic Jews like Victor here in Israel!<br /><br />I actually got the some of the ideas I posted here from a biography of Rabbi Dr Yitzhak Breuer that I read. He was the grandson of Rav Shimshon Rafael Hirsch. Although he enthusiastically adopted his grandfather's "Torah im Derech Eretz" philosophy (new editions books he wrote have recently been recently brought out by Mossad HaRav Kook), he ended up rejecting the anti-Zionism of that "separatist" Orthodox Community of Germany and he developed an new philosophy he called "Torah Im Derech Eretz ISRAEL". It should be pointed out that although he was a Zionist he still believed in the religious community maintaining its distance from the official secular Zionist organizations which he still viewed with suspicion.<br />The crucial thing that Breuer himself noted was the spiritual decline the Hirschian "separatist" Orthodox communities underwent from the time of their founding in the 1850's until the end came in the 1930's. He attributed it to their adopting extreme German nationalism (as a child he refused to sing the German patriotic songs that were sung in the school his grandfather established!) and the communities too-ready adoption of Germand culture and middle-class German values. By the 1920's many of the children who grew up in the community shed religious observance and even among those who remained outwardly observant, Breuer oberved that for many their belief was superficial.<br />Although Americans are not extreme nationalists like the Germans were they are attached to their "politically correct" cultural values and I see it as penetrating even the most supposedly insular Jewish communities, sorry to say.Y. Ben-Davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-2264486941201968822011-03-13T09:57:01.820+02:002011-03-13T09:57:01.820+02:00Y Ben David -
If you wish, I'll delete anythi...Y Ben David -<br /><br />If you wish, I'll delete anything you wish.<br /><br />I see Victor already has, apparently feeling that the discussion got too heated.Yaacovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12835192312242961481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-16527645497489706812011-03-13T09:48:43.664+02:002011-03-13T09:48:43.664+02:00A blessing on ALL your houses, etc....
The primar...A blessing on ALL your houses, etc....<br /><br />The primary problem facing Jewish society today is how to find a mechanism (Torah-oriented, of course) to get Rabbis to keep their mouths shut.<br /><br />(That shouldn't be so hard, should it?....)<br /><br />P.S. Who do they think they are? Israeli Cabinet members? MKs?Barry Meislinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04795125774426217113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-11511850487337152902011-03-13T09:41:42.504+02:002011-03-13T09:41:42.504+02:00Please ignore my last comment, there was some sort...Please ignore my last comment, there was some sort of malfunction. I would delete it but I don't know how to.Y. Ben-Davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-41428989052089915692011-03-13T07:37:03.364+02:002011-03-13T07:37:03.364+02:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Y. Ben-Davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-82705497996065242522011-03-13T03:35:42.302+02:002011-03-13T03:35:42.302+02:00This comment has been removed by the author.Avigdorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05008730229882004376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-33203533933301137682011-03-12T00:22:17.368+02:002011-03-12T00:22:17.368+02:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Bryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09099017972456573744noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-64353396768714969452011-03-11T19:12:18.599+02:002011-03-11T19:12:18.599+02:00This comment has been removed by the author.Avigdorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05008730229882004376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-43359586584154236132011-03-11T17:02:32.668+02:002011-03-11T17:02:32.668+02:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Bryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09099017972456573744noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-84744436632776356302011-03-11T13:15:36.931+02:002011-03-11T13:15:36.931+02:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Y. Ben-Davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-15411934122126071762011-03-11T10:37:23.685+02:002011-03-11T10:37:23.685+02:00This comment has been removed by the author.Avigdorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05008730229882004376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-60550511919092162262011-03-11T08:43:52.220+02:002011-03-11T08:43:52.220+02:00I was having a discussion with a young fellow who ...I was having a discussion with a young fellow who is getting a degree in Jewish history in the US. I made the statement that, when looked at in the entire context of Jewish history, American Jewry has really not made much of an impact. I mean this in the religious, scholarly and JEWISH cultural context (i.e. I am not counting the Jewish contribution to Hollywood and "show biz"). At first he rejected what I said, but then I pointed out, as Yaacov did above, that there was one generation of important religious scholars that arose after the Second World War, but they had passed on by the 1990's and they have not been replaced (I am referring to the Rabbanim Soloveitchik, Kotler, Feinstein and the Lubavitcher Rebbe and I will also add Ginzburg, Finkelstein and Lieberman to the list).<br />Jewish scholarship and culture essentially went from Europe to Eretz Israel, bypassing the US.<br />Sure there are a lot of rich Jews in the US and there are Jews like Philip Roth who chronicle Jewish self-hatred and assimilation in their uniquely American context, but no one will remember them 200 years from now. The important Jewish scholarship, culture and thinking is in Israel now. American general culture and civilization are so overwhemlmingly "accpeting" of the Jews, that it influences ALL Jews, even the most Orthodox and erodes their Jewish antennae, making may of them into what Rav Shimshon Rafael Hirsch described as the "anti-Marrano"---Jewish on the outside, and non-Jewish on the inside.<br />The student I was talking to about this ended up agreeing with me.Y. Ben-Davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-28127645002840962932011-03-11T08:20:13.588+02:002011-03-11T08:20:13.588+02:00...not some world-renowned urban area...
You'...<i>...not some world-renowned urban area...</i><br /><br />You've got to be joking!<br /><br />Beer? Golda? Baseball? Beer? Beer?Barry Meislinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04795125774426217113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-47444136196799081472011-03-11T02:17:39.557+02:002011-03-11T02:17:39.557+02:00Victor
thanks for all that info on Goethehaus, I ...Victor <br />thanks for all that info on Goethehaus, I think never ever would they tell us something like that - it amazes me again and again how different a story I get told about so many things. <br /><br />Goethe-Institut is promoted to us more often than not as a place where foreign students get their first German lessons and they are all full of praise for it. <br /><br />One of these days I look up their website - and this time it is not the reporters it is what their directors have told me in interviews over the years. As to Americans of German origin, do any of them plan to move back to the old country for retirement? - only joking!<br /><br />a Yiddish library in a Goethe-Institut, now that is something, the world sure is an interesting place.Silkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16383345395827271854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-23146498836957210722011-03-11T01:03:11.433+02:002011-03-11T01:03:11.433+02:00Yes, obviously, Israel is irreplaceable today, and...Yes, obviously, Israel is irreplaceable today, and will increasingly assume the burden of responsibility for sustaining the Jewish Diaspora, spiritually, culturally and in the not too distant future, financially also. For me, all that is a good thing.<br /><br />As for Diaspora dollars, I agree that support for Israel is a major way for a lot of Jews to maintain their affiliation with Yiddishkeit. That's a real problem, from my perspective. I don't think it's so much an issue for younger Jews who can choose their level of affiliation with Judaism without necessarily factoring Israel into the equation, though many choose to do so, in positive and negative ways.<br /><br />Regarding infrastructure, I was at an Israeli Bonds meeting some time ago, where the local... what would you call him, they have a name... the local administrator in charge of selling Israeli Bonds in our region, was saying how much improvement there has been in Israel. That, in the 80s, when he first got involved, there was raw sewage flowing through the rivers. Factories were just discharging sludge into ravines and so on. Fast forward twenty years and you have streets running only electric rail cars.Avigdorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05008730229882004376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-16273297070653117202011-03-11T00:47:37.903+02:002011-03-11T00:47:37.903+02:00Incidentally, our local Goethehaus apparently has ...Incidentally, our local Goethehaus apparently has one of the largest collections of yiddish literature in the world. Which is a bit strange, because it's Milwaukee, not some world-renowned urban area, but there it is.Avigdorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05008730229882004376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4008006782907969381.post-33971435075548253292011-03-11T00:44:50.955+02:002011-03-11T00:44:50.955+02:00Victor,
I wasn't talking about how Zionism lo...Victor,<br /><br />I wasn't talking about how Zionism looked in 1900, rather how it looks now.<br /><br />I think the Jewish philanthropy into Israeli is probably closer to 1B than 500m. Israel's national budget is something like 130B. Do the math. For the individual projects, it's significant. For the overall picture, not. And assuming much of the philanthropy goes towards things the national budget wouldn't cover anyway, it's really nice to have, but the disparity of numbers gets even greater (i.e the national budget plus municipalities, plus hospitals-universities-amutot-etc.)<br /><br />The greatest significance of the Jewish philanthropy is that it gives some Jews a way to be committed to the Jewish state; without it, what would their commitment look like? How would it express itself?<br /><br />I don't know how much Israeli money goes into Jewish projects beyond Israel. Probably not trivial sums, tho. I agree with your sentiment, however, that in the present generation it's not the task of Israel to bear the cost of diaspora Jewish communities - tho in non-financial ways, many of them lean heavily on Israel, the supplier of much Jewish education and other intangibles. <br /><br />The creaky infrastructures? You don't know the half of it. Believe me. Yet as someone who's been observing closely for decades, the amount of improvement is quite impressive - and no, it's not happening, mostly, because of the fraction of one percent of the required funds that come from world Jewry. Ultimately, it's because the Israelis work hard and pay high taxes.<br /><br />By the way, thanx for the info about the website. I haven't had time to study it, but hope to early next week.Yaacovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12835192312242961481noreply@blogger.com