A number of readers took my post on Meir Ariel's "Surviving Pharaoh" song to be a comparison between the early 1980s and now.
This actually wasn't my intention, which was rather to say that long-term perspective is important and quite comforting. We've gotten out of lots of tight spots, and today's isn't even that bad. However, since the comparison was made, I might as well address it directly.
Since the early 1980s the Soviet Union has disappeared, removing the superpower that armed most of our enemies. The disappearance also enabled more than a million Soviet Jews to move to Israel, greatly strengthening us and transforming us in many ways, most of them positive or extremely positive. Nor has the transformation exhausted itself yet.
The Oslo process, tho disastrous in many ways, clarified to Israeli society that it had irrevocably abandoned the dream of controlling all of what was once Mandatory Palestine, while the Palestinians had not abandoned the mirror dream. This dual understanding gave Israel a political coherence and broad consensus which are enormously powerful. The reason we never blinked during the black years of 2001-2003, as the Palestinians did their best to bring us to our knees by systematically murdering civilians, was this re-affirmed understanding of the fundamental dynamic, in which we are right but willing to compromise, while the Palestinians wish us gone and are not willing to compromise.
The economic conditions are incomparable. 25 years ago Israel was limping along; today it's an economic powerhouse (well, compared to its tiny size).
Then there's the relation to the world. In the 1980s Israel was hated by the Arab world, the Communist world, and the so-called Third World. (The Economist once quipped that the Non-Aligned Nations lost the ability to be non-aligned against the West once the Soviet Union was gone). Today Israel is still hated by the Arab world, even by most of the Muslim world, though the animosity has its gradations, and manipulating them can be useful. The Soviet world is no more, but some parts of it are staunchly pro-Israel (Poland, say, or the Czech Republic), or cynically so, such as Russia itself. Much of the Third World deals with us on Realpolitik tracks, such as the Brazilian president, hardly a good friend, who recently visited us for his own purposes. The two most significant changes, however, have been the relations with China and India, both of which are vastly better now than then. Both are ancient civilizations which spent their first two or three millennia having no interaction with the Jews - and thus, no built-in anti Jewish conditioning.
Seen in historical terms, rather than news-cycle ones, the decline of Europe and the rise of India and China is probably a fine thing for Israel and the Jews, so long as we take advantage of them - and we seem to be aware of this.
Since the early 1980s the Soviet Union has disappeared, removing the superpower that armed most of our enemies.
ReplyDeleteFortunately for Israel's enemies, the United States has stepped into the breach, arming and training Palestinian security forces (who by night double as Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade terrorists), providing state of the art military equipment to Egypt, arming and training the Iraqi security forces and talking about developing "peaceful" nuclear facilities in the Gulf states.
The United State has also indirectly helped Israel's enemies by forcing Israel into the cease fire with Hezbollah and then ignoring the violation of that agreement as Hezbollah rearms in southern Lebanon; showing no urgency with regard to Iran's nuclear weapons' program while speaking of Iran's right to "peaceful" nuclear energy; pressuring Israel to surrender control of the border between Gaza and Egypt, which has greatly increased the smuggling of weapons to Hamas; and the US kissing up to Syria at a time when Assad is reestablishing military control over Lebanon.
I should add that the current and previous American administrations have also denied Israeli requests for weaponry essential to its security needs.
ReplyDelete4infidels
ReplyDeleteI keep wondering if this courting of Syria isn't happening BECAUSE they want Assad to reestablish military control over Lebanon.
After all March 14 has shown itself - probably through no major fault of its own - to be toothless in preventing the establishment of a state in the state i.e. Hisbollah. A simple policy wonk's mind might therefrom draw the conclusion that when Syria was still in charge Hisbollah was under control ... ergo: back in with Syria is the solution ...
I hope sincerely I am wrong there but this drawing out of the Hariri investigation after its initial phase concluded with a bang is likely to happen in accordance with somebody's script. Maybe somebody who believes courting Assad will make him turn against Iran?
Silke
4infidels
ReplyDeleteI keep wondering if this courting of Syria isn't happening BECAUSE they want Assad to reestablish military control over Lebanon.
After all March 14 has shown itself - probably through no major fault of its own - to be toothless in preventing the establishment of a state in the state i.e. Hisbollah. A simple policy wonk's mind might therefrom draw the conclusion that when Syria was still in charge Hisbollah was under control ... ergo: back in with Syria is the solution ...
I hope sincerely I am wrong there but this drawing out of the Hariri investigation after its initial phase concluded with a bang is likely to happen in accordance with somebody's script. Maybe somebody who believes courting Assad will make him turn against Iran?
Silke
I prefer to see the half-empty glass. Twenty-five, thirty years ago Israel was an unquestionably secular society with a small ultra-religious fringe. Since then, not only have religious nutties became far more numerous, but their nuttiness has gotten ever worse.
ReplyDeleteIn the decades since 1985, Mehadrin bus lines have arisen, modesty patrols have taken to the streets of certain cities to make sure that women don't go around immodestly dressed, anti-miscegenation squads have been formed to harass Arab-Jewish mixed couples, Cabinet ministers preaching religion-based hate against gays and Arabs have become a normal occurrence.
You may say this doesn't affect a large percentage of Israelis; that by avoiding certain towns and neighborhoods you won't even notice it; that Tel Aviv is still strongly secular. Whatever you want. But 25 years back this problem didn't exist, and now it does.
On another front, it has been very harmful for Israel that the antisemitic Japanese invented the camcorder. This has allowed the world to see Hebron Jews sending their children to stone Palestinian schoolgirls, settlers kicking the head of a bound prisoner or brutally clubbing elderly Arabs, or soldiers shooting blindfolded prisoners in the foot. Jews have been seen doing what we always knew Jewish boys don't do.
The spread of the Internet has also damaged Israel's well-oiled defense mechanisms. You won't believe it, but up to some seven years ago it was still possible to claim "Jewish terrorists always gave warnings and attacked military targets only." The information wasn't available for people to check. Even reputed historians reduced Jewish terror to the King David. Now it's impossible because the Palestine Post's clippings are a click away. Dehumanizing the Arabs is becoming increasingly uncomfortable.
Typo: not only have religious nutties *become* far more numerous.
ReplyDeleteIbrahim,
ReplyDeleteWhat is your point? That there are some Jews who do things that are violent, immoral or wrong? That sympathy for the Jews plight and support for Israel is only justifiable if all Israeli Jews behave perfectly 100% of the time?
Even on Israel's worst day, somewhere--whether on the hills of Bangladesh where Buddhists and Hindus are being attacked with axes, knives and shovels by Muslim settlers while the country's army turns a blind eye: in Nigeria where hundreds of Christians women and children are murdered in their sleep by Muslims chanting Allahu Akbar; or in Egypt where rumors that a Christian church was being built or renovated, without a permit, leads thousands of Muslims to attack random Christian neighborhoods while the Egyptian government is late on the scene--Muslims are committing atrocities that make Israel's indiscretions look miniscule in comparison.
So, again I ask you Ibrahim, what is your point? No one denies the right of 57 Muslim countries to exist despite their widespread human rights violations, discrimination against religious and ethnic minorities and state-sponsored incitement. So on what basis do you--proud Muslim that you claim to be--believe that we should unrealistically high standards of behavior to Israel while avoiding holding to Muslim countries to any standards at all?
I was just pointing to aspects of Israel which are worse now than before.
ReplyDeleteFor the record, I'm an atheist.
For the record, I'm an atheist.
ReplyDeleteIbrahim,
From what I can tell, your religion is anti-Zionism. Why would someone from Argentina spend so much effort--to the exclusion of everything else--focused on the supposed sins of Israel?
In your last blog post, you mention that Israeli Arabs who are in the same prison units as Jews do not get bread on Passover. This is certainly a crime against humanity that human rights groups across the world should be shouting about. In addition, this proves, you say, that Israeli judaism is an intolerant religion that seeks to impose its values and rules on everyone.
Either you know nothing about how the rest of the Middle East operates, or you are so blinded by hatred that you can't see the obvious. I am not going to waste my time detailing the many evils that occur in prisons in the rest of the region nor the various ways those governments systematically discriminate against religious minorities in so many aspects of daily life. Islam imposes second class status on religious minorities living under its rule as a fundamental aspect of the faith, and the effects of this can be felt by religious minorities even in more "moderate" countries such as Egypt and Jordan.
You are essentially screaming about someone jaywalking while murder is being committed right in front of you. You weep over the Arab prisoner who gets matzoh rather than bread for one week in Israel while genocide is going on in the Sudan, political prisoners are being raped and murdered in Iran, Turkey threaten 100,000 Armenians with expulsion and torture is common practice throughout all 22 Arab countries.
So again I ask you...what is your point?
4infidels
ReplyDeletein my book Ibrahim's point is that he wants to be "somebody"
he has lured Yaacov "under cover" into a one on one dialogue and following that has gotten much more attention than his otherwise very mediocre blog could have ever hoped to arouse
... and maybe he has pulled off that gimmick with some other kind of prominent bloggers too. Now he has a blog with a certain following and dreams that Jeffrey Goldberg or somebody equally wide-read will quote him just as they do Yaacov.
He has aggrandized himself with a title - he is a Buster - he is riding on a pure-bred stallion to save the world from the wily Israelis (poor stallion)
and I'm getting really mad at myself whenever I slip and let him infuriate me because all that does it gives him another chance to respond one of his hugely exaggerated and tilted and doctored lists. See above how he words his drivel: prisonerS are shot in the foot - to the best of my knowlege there was one incident the fisking of which I haven't followed to the end but Ibrahim writes it as if that were the three-times-daily habit of every soldier.
... on the other hand he thinks footage is still generated by camcorder
the guy is not for real in more than one respect.
Silke
Silke,
ReplyDeleteSo you're saying there is no point to Ibrahim's comments beyond self-promotion?
Certainly we have seen many little known folks--Tony Judt, Steven Walt, Edward Said, to name a few--gain major exposure for writing anti-Israel material that their area of expertise never brought them. At the same time, they say you can't criticize Israel without being silenced by the Zionist lobby.
Clearly Ibrahim would be the first to tell you that he isn't an anti-Semite, just as Judt, Walt, Said or Carter. But what motivates these people to use such poor scholarship and logic, to distort facts, take historical events out of context, etc, in order to make their case against Israel. Surely, this quality of work should diminish the author rather than enhance their careers. Yet those unfairly attacking Israel seem to have no shortage of opportunities in the mainstream media, academia and government.
Is it anti-Semitism, not out of a passionate hatred for Jews, but as the fast track to prominence? Or is it plain old anti-Semitism--except there is a sign on the door to respectable society that says no anti-Semites may enter, so they they slip past security under the guise of "critics of Israel."
Whatever reason these people choose when attacking Israel (human rights violations, doesn't make peace, doesn't allow Palestinians self-determination, national identity built around a religion that all citizens don't practice, builds a wall, doesn't serve bread in prisons on passover, etc., isn't the perfect ally), there are so many more egregious examples around the world of whatever sin that Israel supposedly commits, yet the Israel haters are moved by them, don't shed tears over other victims, like they do when some unfortunate event, large or microscopically small, can be blamed on Israel.
I'd love to have an honest, open and hard-hitting discussion with a critic of Israel. I have yet to find an honest one.
Which is why I ask Ibrahim...what is his point?
meant to say "the Israel haters are unmoved by them"
ReplyDelete4infidels
ReplyDeletewith Ibrahim I keep alternating between trying to taunt him and having a hard time not telling him in my best expletives what I think of him
when taunting I pick out one truth as I perceive it and so yes I think one of Ibrahim's motives is grandstanding, punching above his weight or party-crashing and if he should be an academic then he is nowhere near the class Yaacov is in ... and now I am being serious which anybody can check for himself. I've now read through 3? posts of Ibrahim - he doesn't manage a coherent argument. He is also nowhere close to the class Judt, Walt, Said or even Carter. (have you come across the delightful story that Carter wanted to discuss the Bible with Golda Meir, him teaching sunday school and thus being an expert, and she just kept chain-smoking - I mean such presumption - that is one thing that gets me up in arms anytime, the lack of tact with which these people seem to think they can deal with somebody of her caliber)
even at the time when Yaacov entered into their tete-a-tete I was pessimistic about it. Please don't get me wrong I can almost feel that you are itching to finally argue it out with somebody of the Ibrahim's kind.
But discussing with Anti-Semites whether in their current shapes Anti-Zionism or we must help Israel to find the path of virtue in my experience is a hopeless endeavour
- I, an agnostic, can have a decent "fight" with Sergio the atheist and Victor the believer or was it somebody else and not be hindered by it for one second in finding common ground in practical matters because they are that kind of people - but I don't think you can ever get an anti-semite to the point that he/she respects your position and enters for example an honest conversation with you about what can be done on a practical level. He/she will never consent that there are conditions on the ground which as long as Israelis remain human and refuse to be killed will impose certain standpoints on them.
BTW the discussion of today has me reminded that the US when at war interned its Japanese citizens without asking questions and as far as I remember the British had also a program of internment. When you live in a country where you must expect at any moment that a construction worker goes on a rampage with a bulldozer you sooner or later start to behave stricter as you would wish to. (For example in my country I would feel extremely uncomfortable if I knew there were young men with loaded weapons on the street. In Israel the same knowledge would make me feel grateful)
I wish you with all my heart good luck in getting Ibrahim to write one only one straight sentence. You know if he could clear up his distorted world view he might even be capable of writing straight sentences ...
and now I am only half taunting.
I believe clear sentences come only out of a clear mind and a mind in knots and twists due to being constantly overexcitedly on the look-out for new ingenuous accusations against Israel isn't conducive to the production of clear sentences.
I'll keep my fingers crossed (for you of course)
Silke
4infidels
ReplyDeleteone last word
- I think it was I not you who was called disingenuous by Ibrahim
- I earned it for my totally disingenuously meant answer to Levi 9909
- but if you like it then I am willing to share it with you - half for you and half for me ;-)
Silke
Thanks Silke.
ReplyDeleteI wasted more of my day arguing with Ibrahim and Levi9909 at Fake Ibrahim's website.
I would have a little bit of respect for them if they would just come out and admit they are anti-Semites. At least they would score points for honesty. Instead, they pretend, as anti-Semities throughout history have, that there is some noble reason to hate the Jews or Israel, and that hatred is justified due to the Jews behavior, which when questioned, they admit isn't so bad, that others can be worse and so on...
If they aren't anti-Semites why would they be so concerned with Israel?
Fake Ibrahim had a chance to say that he wants to end US alliance with Israel or some other policy objective. He didn't. He accused me of denying his freedom of thought by questioning his motives.
4infidels
ReplyDelete"He accused me of denying his freedom of thought by questioning his motives."
what a perfectly delightful example of Ibrahim's meagre powers of arguing!
This take is very popular in Germany also and there as elsewhere it has been exposed as sucked dry (ausgelutscht) for decades over and over again. Still some people still consider themselves brilliant if they can come up with it.
"why would they be so concerned with Israel?"
one of the reasons I quite often look at is that they just can't stand that you Israelis/Jews are the rightful owners of "the book" and I seem always to get a sniff of their anger that they have a religion which is only a late-comer, a child, - and never mind if they declare themselves to be atheists, it is the mould you have been raised in that counts and so that's meaningless (mine is protestant/lutheran though I label myself by now an agnostic for want of something better)
- in case Ibrahim used to be a Muslim by declaring himself an apostate he might very easily have a fatwa thrown at him by now even in the middle of Europe where the operation seems to be run according to this rule book - that he declares himself to be one means either that Argentinia is very far away or that he may feel secure in his anonymity
http://itunes.apple.com/de/podcast/dissenting-descent/id214356260?i=81925824
which by a strange twist makes the "they killed our god" Christian crowd kind of come out of the closet more and more hoping that they might be the victorious on the religiosity revival wave by riding into "battle" screened by them, right now they do it still at least on the face of it by honouring their Jewish ancestry, an attitude which strikes me quite often as somehow using an iron virgin (eiserne Jungfrau) style embrace.
Silke
4infidels again
ReplyDeleteI have been over to Ibrahim's again and you may
- at least to my dirty German world view - claim "victory"
- Ibrahim says he has a target audience - Bingo!!!
- because only "they" (the A-S-s) say they aim for the "band of brothers (and sisters)" stuff
- the Yaacovs of this world never have that goal because they "target" all of us.
(which incidentally makes them very very attractive on the one hand and very vulnerable on the other because when it is individual against group the group tends to win the day)
Silke