"Don't underestimate the opinion … of the average Jew outside Israel," he told the radio station. "There is indeed a belief – it's difficult to describe it otherwise – among most Jews that they are right. And a belief is something that's difficult to counter with rational arguments. And it's not so much whether these are religious Jews or not. Lay Jews also share the same belief that they are right. So it is not easy to have, even with moderate Jews, a rational discussion about what is actually happening in the Middle East."EU bureaucrats, on the other hand, know for a fact that they're often wrong. Proof: the same fellow later clarified his comments:
"I gave an interview … I gave my personal point of view," he said. "I regret that the comments that I made have been interpreted in a sense that I did not intend. "I did not mean in any possible way to cause offence or stigmatise the Jewish community. I want to make clear that antisemitism has no place in today's world."
OT but a kind of corrective to the EU-idiot who one must admit sadly has via his "remarks" become well-known and probably gets a lot of google hits now.
ReplyDeleteHere is Tony Blair in the "Interview" (BBC)
I liked listening to him
Silke
http://itunes.apple.com/de/podcast/interview-tony-blair-03sep10/id262251839?i=86881281
...yes, we are indeed a stiff-necked people.
ReplyDeleteRight about what? Are they wrong in that they think their very right to a national existence, like that of every other nation, should not be perpetually subject to a veto from outsiders, least of all from the barbaric world of Muslim Arabs? Futhermore, it seems to be a common belief in Europe that Israelis and their American supporters are the most bigoted and reactionary force in the world today. It is not easy to take in just how stupid Europeans are.
ReplyDeleteI'm shocked, SHOCKED, to see a European being daintily anti-Semitic and arrogant.
ReplyDeleteIt's hard to know where to start with an outburst like that. One can deduce he thinks he's right on whatever issues he was debating with said Jews, but his petulant tirade here isn't that of a rational person so it's difficult to imagine this guy putting forward a reasoned or rational argument in the first place.
ReplyDeleteI'd hesitate at accusing him of anti-semiticism just on the basis of his remarks, them's the words of a sore loser there. He's probably grown to dislike Jews, and may be anti-semitic, but I expect mainly because the Jews he's tangled with were a whole lot smarter & more knowledgeable than he was and made him look foolish. Burst a bureaucrat's bubble of pomposity and they can get very narky.
Cheers, Gavin
I don't know how far you are from Christchurch, Gavin, but stay safe!
ReplyDeleteI'd hesitate at accusing him of anti-semiticism just on the basis of his remarks, them's the words of a sore loser there.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't hesitate at all. He is a sore loser anti-semite - period.
As far as I know he's not an elected official so the EU could fire him without any hassle. Will they do it? I'm sure they won't. Anybody is interested to bet?
Time Magazine has for its Asian and US cover story a very very ugly Israel smearing cover and story while Europe and Pacific feature Tony Blair.
ReplyDeletethis is the ugly story
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2015602,00.html
As to de Guch: "they" have learned that by creating a bit of a "sexy" Israel/Jew-outrage their name gets known by both sides simultaneously. i.e. they enhance their "brand".
Here is de Guch's page, he is a lawyer by training and gives lectures (for free) on European Law and he sounds like a bit of a weird fundamentalist free-trader. A guy who has never made any money by trading anything himself except maybe as a kid on a flea market is in charge of European trade - whenever I look at any of these people their sheer mediocre mediocreness gives me the chills. And how could any Jew dare not to get bowled over by the deep insights of somebody like that.
When (free trade) part of a wider set of measures, it is a potent lever promoting European values abroad, like sustainable development and human rights.
http://ec.europa.eu/commission_2010-2014/degucht/
John Lanchester says in "Whoops" (US-Title IOU) :
"people are going to get steadily and inexorably more furious. I am not sure at whom: I hope it's at the responsible bodies, but I wouldn't bet on it. PUBLIC RAGE IS LIKE LIGHTNING and tends to discharge its energies at anyone who has the bad luck to be prominent in the wrong way at the wrong time."
People I talk to seem to be more resigned than furious but what if somebody comes and shows them a way to take ...
It seems like testing the water is about to become the to-do-thing for aspiring politicians. and the sad thing is that you don't have to be an anti-semite to go after a group, if the mood is right a slanderer may get a crowd to follow him quite easily.
Silke
What is so strange about it? This guy used to be Foreign Minister of that country whose king collaborated with the Nazi and had its Jews deported, whose colonists were the most extreme in their oppression of Africans ("the horror! The horror!"), and whose most notable contribution to world's civilization were racism and anti-semitism served through children's publications. Anyone who grew up on "Tintin" knows where he is coming from.
ReplyDeleteA Belgian diplomat? Apologize? It took Belgium 62 years to start looking into its own crimes against the Jews. I wouldn't hold my breath. Though Europeans are becoming fed up with this kind of rhetoric judging from French newspapers.
Though Europeans are becoming fed up with this kind of rhetoric judging from French newspapers
ReplyDeleteunfortunately you are right Sylvia and unfortunately quite a bit of that "rhetoric" sounds stomach churningly formulaic.
They are not the same crowd but I'd guess there is some overlap: there is also a lot of chafing against what I'd call decent manners and "they" call inhibition of free speech.
In my country it seems the Islamophobia meme gathers speed which in my book is another gimmick from the store of Holocaust envy.
I had retired by the time of Ahmadinejad's cartoon contest but when clicking through the filth I heard quite a number of colleagues chuckling in the back of my head. The monster isn't dead (the chucklers were all PhD-ed chemists and seemed to see it as proof of their world-wiselyness about what's really going on and invisible to common ones - it was infantile and weird at the same time)
Silke
Thanks for the concern Yaacov, I'm up the other end miles from the action so no worries here. Big fuss about nothing, we get more damage & injuries up here at pub closing time on a Friday night. Bunch of girls those mainlanders, they'll bleat about this for years.
ReplyDeletePeter you're probably right but the term anti-semitism is becoming too broad a brush to paint with (in my view anyway) I'm finding myself using the term 'Jew-hater' to define those with the visceral-type hatred of Jews and it's not a term I like but the one-size-fits-all antisemitism is gradually losing it's value. I'd rather see the word used more sparingly. They don't all hate Jews, xenophobia is a disease too.
Regards, Gavin
Gavin
ReplyDeleteMaybe they don't hate Jews they only fear of their "hidden powers", of their "control of the media"? The name isn't important at all we can call this kind of persons goulash soup - the results of this kind of thinking and worldviev can be devastating as we experienced in the not so distant past and start to relearn again.
Gavin I am aghast
ReplyDeletea bunch of girls?????
has no doctor ever told you that the biggest sissies are the boys?
that there are lots of them who faint when they see blood?
can't think of any more insults to boys right now, but'll keep listing them whenever I'll remember another one.
Anti-Semitism as a description is probably most suffering from the accusation of Islamophobia getting steam - it is quite hard to declare that for nonsense and keeping up the other broad albeit mostly accurate accusation. Some bloggers in the US have done it by comparing attack-statistics on Jews and Muslims, the Jews "won"
Though that's certainly a useful track they'll just keep whining that they are not treated with equal concern.
Silke
Not sure how to answer that Peter. You're right, but being right doesn't necessarily follow that there's only one path to go down. Words have power only when they're not over-used, I've been developing misgivings for quite some time about the increasing use of the term anti-semitism. There's a lot of people out there who sway with the wind, they appear to dislike Jews now & then one day an event occurs that pushes them in a different direction.
ReplyDeleteIt's human nature, too many people are weak and easily led. Among them, often in sheeps clothing, are the real nazis of today and I think it's important to somehow separate them. I don't disagree the term anti-semite isn't relevant but use it too much and you take away it's power & authority.
Gavin
I agree with you Gavin, the overuse of an expression may lessen its power, but evil has many colours, shades and degrees - it remains evil. Not calling this person an anti-semite may suggest that his words are somewhat parts of the legitimate discourse even if we don't agree with them.
ReplyDeleteI thought the EJC handled it ok Peter. They trended to attack the words rather than the person, now it's for him to show his true colours.
ReplyDeleteMy inital impression of him was a man with a Napolean complex frustrated at the refusal of others to heed him. He knows what's best for the ME, how dare the Jews defy his omniprescience. A pompous windbag with an overinflated opinion of his own worth. Does he have an innate dislike of Jews? Maybe, time will tell there I think but he probably has similar views on other occasions about the French... the Poms... the Germans.. etc..
Bureaucrats, bah!
Cheers, Gavin
Gavin
ReplyDeleteDon't tell me that maybe he dislikes Hungarians too!
But seriously, I think that the fellow is a bigot and probably an unintelligent person. The EU should not allow to have him as a CEO, his employment hurts their interests. He is not in an elected position - what is the problem with fire him?
This is an article I posted about the rise of anti-Semitic Left and the EU.
ReplyDeletehttp://astuteblogger.blogspot.com/2010/09/from-ny-times-january-3-1971-anti.html
Yup can go along with that Peter. Call him an anti-semite & you'll get people supporting him in a them-against-us kind of way. Call him incompetent the right way and you'll get a horde of wannabes circling for the kill chasing his job. Let them (help them) kill their own carrion.
ReplyDeleteGavin
Gavin
ReplyDeleteI left Europe for Israel many years ago, but it seems to me that I didn't leave my illusions about European culture and civility...
Probably a big mistake to expect the European politicians to do the right thing because of the right reasons...
Gavin and Peter
ReplyDeleteif the EU resembles in any way Germany then lots of these bigwigs gets their jobs by organisations who have a right to fill the job, i.e. if you try to fire him for the right reason or even better don't accept him in the first place for the right reason (incompetence) you endanger a whole job placement scheme.
I see it as a tribal system, we call it having the right vitamin B, B for Beziehungen i.e. Connections. It is what any institution that gets on in years suffers from and the more potent players you have meddling the worse it gets.
If you want to get rid of him you either have to sour his buddies who helped him into the seat on him by making it seem as if he embarrasses them, for that anti-semitism may be a useful accusation if the climate is still up to that or you have to praise him away
-
remember the Peter-Principle? everybody gets promoted until he reaches his level of incompetence and if he/she then should still be good at the job you have to "promote" him horizontally.
Competent people are poison for the system, they have the unfortunate tendency to make things happen
That's why I object to the indiscriminate bashing of bureaucrats. You need people to keep watch over your property rights and a lot of other stuff. Look out for the competent ones, give the unfuriating a fair chance on explaining the conundrums, if they can do that well, side with them and ridicule the rest mercilessly, but stop ridiculing all of them, because that makes the jobs very secure for the idiots.
Silke
Don't sweat it Silke, I reserve the term bureaucrat for those who wield authority, the rest are civil servants doing their job. There's a certain type of person in bureacracy who is rulebound. Most of us live our lives by a mix of laws, social norms and morality, we go along with the rules of the state but we all flaunt then frequently. Some people out there however live entirely by rules. When a rulebound bureaucrat is put in a position of power where they make the rules... there is no more dangerous person on the planet. Its hard to envisage a more scary & repressive scenario than what the EU is morphing into. Democracy & statehood might be flawed but they're still better than all the alternatives.
ReplyDeleteGavin
Gavin
ReplyDeleteif anybody can outmaneuver the wannabe "leaders" then it is the civil servants, but at least all I know, feel the heat just as much as the "bureaucrats" by your parlance and not in any abstract terms, if you work in an administration you have to prove your colours anew to each one from the technical side often with each encounter. And if you want to start a revolt by for example "proceding by the letter" you need at least quiet support from the currently setting the tone people.
I don't know if it is this constant talk or if it is a natural, almost everybody from the technical side seems to start off with being convinced that paper pushers are mentally underendowed.
That was mostly harmless in the old times when our two groups were well separated and fought it out in a rather chivalrous enmity, but these days there are all kinds of hybrids like the computer guys and "McKinsey" consultants and way too few of them can be induced to descend into the demands of everyday life, after all It is such a hindrance to the beauty of a model or a theory and so hard to power-point. (no sarcasm intended)
and yes I think the EU is on quite an ominous path but unfortunately I don't trust nation states in our area either.
Silke (girl)
Another reason a term can begin to seem overused is that there is too much legitimate opportunity to use it. I suppose in de Gucht's eyes one has to be grateful that the Arabs are so reasonable. You have to wonder the kind of role you might expect from a figure like de Gucht during still darker times of the kind we know, when casual Antisemitism like his might have reached the level of prevailing cultural, even governmental discourse. You think he'd be finding some moral center or following the path of least resistance? Ezra Pound tried to account for what he'd done by disparaging it as a "suburban prejudice." Saul Bellow called it "country club Antisemitsim." We might call de Gucht's bureaucratic or mercantile Antisemitism.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, speaking of rational discussion, anyone read this insult to reason by Hussein Agha and Robert Malley in everyone's favorite British newspaper? http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2010/sep/03/skewed-middle-east-peace-talks.
I'm going to fisk it tomorrow. Today I do not labor.
Jay
ReplyDeleteto me the Guchts who are cropping up sound like they are straining at the leash, they feel they have wide-spread support in their circle i.e. what we heard from him is accepted speech in his personal bubble.
Silke
Silke,
ReplyDeleteI think you are exactly right, and they lose sight of the diameter of the bubble, break through it, and then issue their insincere retractions. The more the bubble expands, the greater the extent of what they are willing to express.
Jay
ReplyDeleteI don't know whether Google translate may do it justice, so just for the record: here is the piece which as to my memory marked a significant crack in the flood-gates of the "leash" - it is from October 1998 a speech by high literature best-selling author Martin Walser and introduced the by now still (hopefully) infamous expression of "Auschwitz-Keule" (Auschwitz-club) into the public debate but probably not harming the wide esteem of the author.
The way I remember it he, instead of calling for thinking about what good Holocaust-education might be like, which may or may not have been his intention, whined about him being hit over the head with said club i.e. enough is enough, it is so long ago now and one must be allowed to say ... (freedom of speech thingy as if decency was a freedom of speech issue).
It says a lot about de Gucht that he reminded me of that one and it shows how seeds grow.
http://www.hdg.de/lemo/html/dokumente/WegeInDieGegenwart_redeWalserZumFriedenspreis/index.html
Silke
I take it you're a paper-pusher Silke aye? Got nothing against it, accounts are as important as the sales force. I'm more against unelected bureaucrats grabbing power & authority for themselves, I'm sure that bureaucrcy has in its midst some capable leaders but they should be elected to power just like every other politician.
ReplyDeleteYou might find this interesting, Karel de Guchts CV;
http://ec.europa.eu/commission_2010-2014/degucht/about/cv/
He's the EU Commissioner for Trade and yet his CV shows no evidence of him ever working in the world of Trade & Industry. I wouldn't hire a salesman to run the accounts department, nor would I hire an accountant or lawyer to negotiate business deals. That's the arrogance of bureaucracy; they know better than the people who actually work in the field.
His publications give away a bit about himself too... doesn't like the right. (Yaacov might smile at one title "On the banalisation of the extreme right")
Cheers, Gavin
yes Gavin I used to be a paper pusher in a corporation and one who prided herself that her prime duty was to make life as easy as possible for people in charge of producing things in the widest sense from janitor to inventor.
ReplyDeleteI am so insistent on the point because I can't figure out for the life of me what I could have done had I been a clerk filling in the bills of lading at the RSHA. Clerks are capable of throwing in a lot of spanners but as a single operator of a despised group?
If you ctrl F for flea you find that I figured out that de Gucht's complete ignorance of everything concerning trade already. Heck, I'd feel safer with somebody in charge who'd had operated a successful fruit stall at a market previously than pompous non-entities of that one.
Helmut Schmidt once said that the greatest draw-back in democracy was that it favoured people into office who had the ability to make themselves liked by everybody and that those weren't the people one really dug in everyday life.
So if his party had on the strengths of the seats they had acquired in elections nominated somebody with solid provable experience I wouldn't mind so much. But like that "Foreign Minister" Baroness who comes from the anti-atomic movement he comes not from anything respectable for the job and was even before he outed himself as a hateful idiot.
Silke