This morning a court in Tel Aviv headed by an Arab judge accompanied by two women judges convicted former president Moshe Katzav of rape and other sexual crimes. Much might be said about this, and even more has been said. In all the torrent of verbiage, however, it's reasonable to include the observation that Israel's legal system came through with high grades, and this is an indication of a type of strength. Something to be proud of.
So I've just taken a short tour of the Twitter feeds of the tiny part of Israeli society which spends its time compulsively documenting how bad Israel is, and how shaky and beleaguered its democracy. You might expect these folks would at least note that sometimes part of the Israeli system get things right; actually, given the size of the event (the Head of State convicted of rape and soon to go to jail), it might at least be worth pondering if this in any way balances the endless stream of horror stories.
I have included in the list only people who tweeted today. People who may be on vacation and in any case didn't tweet, get the benefit of the doubt.
Hagai El-Ad, the boss of the Association of Civil Rights in Israel (ACRI): Nothing.
Rabbis for Human Rights: No tweets of their own, but one retweet of someone in Boston who seems to be doubting that the case can be construed as a sign of democratic strength.
+972 Magazine: Nothing.Though they did name Anat Kamm as their 2nd choice for person of the year in 2010 for defying the evil Israeli system.
Jessica Montell, the boss of B'Tselem: She initially responded to the verdict by commenting that "Israel had a President who was a serial rapist". Then, responding to a follower, she clarified: "I was not focusing on #Katzav the man, but on what it means for us as a society." This can be read in various ways, but it seems to me she's mostly criticizing Israeli society for having had such a president.
The NIF tweeted about a press release of theirs, which says the conviction is a win for women's rights and the rule of law,and emphasizing the role played by the NIF in making it happen. (Here's the press release). Personally I think their role was rather minor, but given that they've got to live off fund-raising, trumpeting their contribution is reasonable. And they noted the salient points, unlike some of their grantees.
Mondoweiss missed the story entirely - though to be honest, the Mondoweiss gang aren't Israeli, and aren't interested in Israel unless it disappears. (Ditto for Richard Silverstein).
Didi Remez: oops! Missed the story.
Rachel Shabi, of Guardian fame: Missed it.
Lisa Goldman (an active blogger and twitterer off on Israel's left): Why did it take more than four years?
Ran Cohen, boss of Physicians for Human Rights, gets it right, (in Hebrew). Likewise Naama Carmi, a former Chair of ACRI, also in Hebrew. Though Carmi's departure from ACRI, at the height of the 2nd Intifada, may have indicated that she was a bit too Zionist to survive in that corner of society.
I've had my share of encounters with harrassing men in my work and private life, but I am beginning to have my doubts whether this going to court is going to do any good to women's lib.
ReplyDeleteWe are NOT CHILDREN unable to protect ourselves from guys dreaming of the exercising the droit de seigneur and a lot of this long after the fact surfacing stuff seems to imply that we are helpless victims. Unless there is the creditable threat of physical violence or loss of livelihood commonly called job we are not.
If of course as is reported in the case of Assange Condoms were agreed upon and then omitted on the sly I would consider that a punishable offence just like any other attempt at inflicting physical harm would be.
Men with the strength of character don't proposition women and they don't make improper sexual advances on women they have no relationship with.
ReplyDeleteIn Israel, its well known for a long time there is one justice system for the Left and another justice system for others. Moshe Katzav is a depraved and corrupt being who got the verdict he deserved today but there are lot like him in Israel and what's needed is an end to the dual justice system and an end to the impunity the most powerful in Israeli society enjoy.
Time will tell whether today's verdict represents a step in that direction. And a word about the anti-Israel crowd: they don't comment unless something makes Israel look bad and when Israeli justice does work, Israel looks good. No wonder it doesn't fit their agenda!
Steven Plaut is right about Israel's prosecution and courts. The burden is on them to prove it was not political payback for infringing on the Israeli Left's right to treat the country as its private political preserve:
ReplyDelete"I think I would be more inclined to believe that justice was done in the trial of Moshe Katsav if the Israeli leftist chattering classes, led by Shimon Peres himself, were not running about giddily pronouncing that the trial proves that Israel has one single uniform fair justice system for all.
It does not.
Israel has a dual justice system, under which one standard of justice applies to far leftists and another to everyone else.
The Israeli judicial system is corrupt and highly politicized. It is biased and functions in many ways as an appendage of the radical Left, and this is true going all the way to the top of the system, where so many of the country's senior jurists are still openly practicing and preaching courtroom political bias in the name of "judicial activism."
The court system refuses to defend the basic constitutional rights, especially freedom of speech, for non-leftists. At the same time it refuses to prosecute and indict Arabs and leftists for treason even in the most egregious cases. Some Arab judges misuse their courtrooms as arenas of a judicial intifada against Israel. The courts castrate the military and prevent Israel from fighting terrorism properly. The judicial system openly persecutes "rightists" and "settlers," denying them their constitutional rights. All the while pandering to the political petitions of the Far Left.
So while the self-righteous chatterers are patting themselves on the back over Israel's judicial system being so fair and equitable, it behooves us to wonder out loud if Moshe Katsav would be headed to prison if he were a leftist. It also behooves us to wonder if he would be headed to jail had he not trashed Shimon Peres in the Presidential election of 2000, when Katsav blocked Peres and his Labor Party minions from seizing the Presidency. (Peres did manage to become President later, but he and his Labor Party bolshies always nursed a grudge against Katsav.)
Moshe Katsav was well liked before the charges of sexual misbehavior were raised against him, much better liked than Shimon Peres. Large portions of the Israeli general public and several leading jurists in Israel are still convinced that Katsav is innocent and was railroaded, perhaps as political payback.
Me personally? I have no doubt that Katsav was always a lech and a skirt chaser and I believe he did engage in inappropriate sexual advances against anything with two X chromosomes. An Israeli Bill Clinton. But did he actual perpetrate violent rape? The court says he did. The court might be correct. And it might not be. I reserve the right to retain a bit of skepticism.
There have been too many abuses of public trust and too many politicized decisions by the Israeli courts to presume in all cases that they are competent and reliable and fair and objective . The burden of proof is today upon the courts to prove they did not judge Katsav in a politically biased manner. It is the fault of politicized judges that things have gotten to this - where the courts themselves must convince the public that they did not produce politicized miscarriages of justice.
I have no evidence that the Katsav conviction was such a miscarriage. But I am not willing to presume that Israeli judges are ALWAYS neutral and fair until proven biased. There are too many cases that have already proved otherwise."
I agree with him on this score. Israel's justice system leaves a lot to be desired.
A big part of the story is that one of the three judges is an israel Arab, George Karra (I would guess Christian).
ReplyDeleteBut that plus the fact that Katzav can scarcely be called an underprivileged Mizrachi makes it hard, though not impossible, for Shabi to get on her soapbox about how Mizrachi Jews are discriminated against by the imaginary Ashkenazi majority.
You may remamber the numerous articles on the "rape by deception" case.
With Katzav, there is little but silence from the Guardian. One article by Ana Caboose, I think.
Plaut and Norman are spot on.
ReplyDeleteThe Slonim and Katsav cases confirm the Israeli judiciary is run by a secular, loony-left, Askenazi mafia which are incapable of fair treatment of anyone who is religious or is on the centre-right of the political spectrum.
Right now, Israel's only strong international support is coincidentally from centre-right religious Christians. The ideologically corrupt loony-left Israeli courts are doing Israel's image no favour with its principal gentile base.
Oh sight. this judgment should be seen as a good thing. First, how many countries even in the West are willing to put their politicians and officials on trial for crimes they commit in and out of office. The fact that Israeli government is willing to put a President on trial for rape shows a great commitment of Israel to the rule of law and justice. It also is a sign of that the Zionist commitment to feminism and women's rights, which goes back to the days of Herzl, is still strong. The decision in this case makes me proud of Israel and proud to be a Zionist.
ReplyDeleteKatsav had is day in Court and had plenty of legal representation to help him in his defense. The trial was fair and he was convicted.
Akus, not only was one of the judges an Arab Christian but the George Kara, the Arab Christian, was the presiding judge. So you have the Jewish President of the Jewish state being tried in Court presided over by an Arab Christian judge. And people call Israel an apartheid state.
The rule of law is proof of a healthy society, and there´s nothing new that the proverbial "community of opprobrium" will either ignore this aspect or will turn it against Israel. After all, this community´s very existence is glaring proof of Israel´s democratic credentials.
ReplyDeleteAs I pointed out on my blog (mostlykosher.blogspot.com):
ReplyDeleteI can't help but wonder about all the people (which is virtually everyone who spoke on the news) who are commenting how the guilty verdict against former president Katzav is a sign of the strength of Israeli democracy. What would they have said if he was found not guilty? Would that have shown that Israeli democracy is weak? Is it only a great day for democracy if he is guilty?
The great day for democracy that they are thinking of, happened when Katzav was put on trial. Anyone claiming that his conviction is a great day, is showing a lack of belief in the legal system - and may even be hinting that the conviction was not based solely on the case at hand.
"Katsav had is day in Court and had plenty of legal representation to help him in his defense. The trial was fair and he was convicted."
ReplyDeleteThis is nonsense. The court was a farce, with secret proceedings and no jury. The defense made frequent complaint of hamstringing; feminist political groups applied massive pressure; and the rampant contradictions in the compainants claims were ignored.
One observer noted that "criminal lawyer, Yoram Sheftel, who saw himself the "evidence" and documents , claims that the whole trial was a hoax-that there are no proofs against Katzav and that one of those who complained of rape changed her story no less than three times."
I conclude that the Israeli judiciary is controlled by a mafia of elitist, ideologically-driven, extreme loony-leftists. Absent a change, this will deprive Israel of the support of any decent human beings believing the religious and rightists deserve human rights.
Count me in on with those who think the trial was a political farce. Whereas Katsav was definitely a foolish man who played into their hands, his prosecution is political harasssment, period. I do not believe he raped anybody. His ultimate crime was defeating Shimon Peres for the Presidency in 2000. Other people who crossed Peres also had bad things happen them, even worse than what happened to Katsav.
ReplyDeleteAlso the fact that the trial was in secret and there was no jury Israeli-style really makes me wonder what the truth really is.
Bill Clinton did similar things (remember Gennifer Flowers) yet he is a big hero to the Feminists and "progressives" in both the US and Israel, which just proves to me the whole thing is political.
Oh dear me the usual gaggle of ijyuts on the left are cheering. Not for the reason you'd hope but so they can screech like chimps about the sexual depravity of Jews. Take a look at the leftist and by leftist I mean far right neo Larouchite 'progressive' blogs. Straight out of Julius Striecher.
ReplyDeleteYoram Sheftel may have a point in his criticism of the trial. But "just a thought" is wrong to blame it on "Ashkenazim" when the one who started the ball rolling against Katsav was Meni Mazuz, the attorney general in 2006 who is not Ashkenazi. But he is a so-called "leftist-universalist." A lot about the trial has a fishy smell.
ReplyDeleteThe wing-nuttery on the guilty verdict is truly impressive. Just a Thought, its my understanding that the Israeli judicial system like many others does not employ juries but has the judges as the determinator of fact and law. This is not unusual, its actually more common than trial by jury. Since jury trials are not part of the Israeli judicial system than it really makes no sense to complain that Katsav was tried without a jury because everybody in Israel is tried without a jury.
ReplyDeleteI also really fail to see why center-right Christians are going to be turned off to Israel because an ex-President was convicted of rape by an Israeli court.
I've tried to Google what Katsav actually did in down-to-earth-no-uncertain-terms - no such luck
ReplyDeleteuntil a plausible description of what actually happened I continue to suspect that rape and harrassment are terms that are bandied about more and more for really minor transgressions, any adult woman should be capable of handling herself, just like she is expected to be capable of handling an obnoxious sales person without court assistance and drive her car safely over an Autobahn full of testeronized BMWs.
Again in general women do themselves no favour by leaving the definition of where the line to a criminal offense is drawn to feminists who I remember only to well as pontificating that all penetration is violence.
Also I remember only too well how Mary Beard got "them" going by insisting that the old days when a whiff of the erotic was allowed in the student/professor relationship weren't so bad.
Katsav I'm told has hugged in undesired ways but I am not told whether he has been told by the hugged that the hug isn't liked or did the hugged run to the police right away?
" But "just a thought" is wrong to blame it on "Ashkenazim" when the one who started the ball rolling against Katsav was Meni Mazuz, the attorney general in 2006 who is not Ashkenazi."
ReplyDeleteHave you never heard the term "tool" or "useful idiot"? Mazuz acted as the foolish tool of Israel's secular leftist white Ashkenazi political mafia.
" A lot about the trial has a fishy smell."
It was neither more nor less than a political show trial.
"its my understanding that the Israeli judicial system like many others does not employ juries but has the judges as the determinator of fact and law. This is not unusual, its actually more common than trial by jury."
When the loony Israeli left wants to subjugate the religious right (such as the gender march or the Slonim case), it invokes the standards of liberal western democracy. So why hypocritically dismiss this right when the shoe is on the other foot and the left has engaged in show-trial persecution of the religious right?
Jury trial is a fundamental human right in the major western democracies (the USA, Canada, France, UK, Australia, ..).
Even lay Wiki acknowledges that: "English common law and the United States Constitution recognize the right to a jury trial to be a fundamental civil liberty or civil right"
" also really fail to see why center-right Christians are going to be turned off to Israel because an ex-President was convicted of rape by an Israeli court."
Because we also recognise core issues of justice and see no reason to continue to support a state which engages in Maoist/Stalinist show trials of the religious centre-right.
Just a thought, if you want to blame anybody for the lack of jury trials in Israel blame the British. The British did not institute jury trials in the Mandate period and the Israeli government simply followed the precedent.
ReplyDeleteAlso jury trials are not present in all Western democracies or are only present in some cases.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_trial
"Just a thought, if you want to blame anybody for the lack of jury trials in Israel blame the British."
ReplyDeleteIsrael has been free of Britain for more than half a century and should not scapegoat others for its crimes against the religious right; after all, the tragedies of Jewish history teach quite us thoroughly the evils of scapegoating.
"Also jury trials are not present in all Western democracies or are only present in some cases."
More nonsense intended to whitewash the crimes of Israel's secular white leftist Ashkenazi mafia.
The leaders of the free world are the USA, the UK, and France, with Australia and Canada major role models as well. All these countries have formally incorporated a right to jury trial as a major, fundamental, undeniable, core human right in serious criminal cases.
You're only succeeding in convincing me that the Israeli-left stranglehold on Israeli society makes the country completely and incorrigibly obtuse to fundamental human rights principles.
If the EU and J-Street can pressure Israel from the left, why not conservative Christians from the right? The conservative and religious US centre-right should withdraw its support from Israel until Israel breaks the repugnant stranglehold of its secular leftist mafia.
Maariv Editor Yemini on Katsav Farce
ReplyDeleteIn this case, the WP has more integrity than the rest of the press, mentioning Yemini's dissent:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/31/AR2010123101558.html
"One of the few dissenting voices was Ben-Dror Yemini, a columnist for the daily Maariv, who accused the judges of caving into hostile media coverage of Katsav and partly acting on prejudice against Jews of Middle Eastern origin.
Katsav was born in Iran and grew up in a poor Israeli town, becoming a young mayor and a political success story before his spectacular fall from grace. Many critics in Israel see the legal system as representing a secular elite dominated by Israelis of European origin and liberal views.
"The contempt and loathing were already there," Yemini wrote. "Katsav is not one of our own. Katsav is the other, the stranger who occupied a role he had no business taking."
A much longer English paraphrase of Yemeni's Hebrew article:
http://zioncon.blogspot.com/2010/12/maarivs-yemini-on-katsav-affair.html
Hirschenson or what's is name - an ex finance minister is in jail. Somehow he doesn't seems to me a person of Mizrachi origin...
ReplyDeletePeter, you have a sample size problem.
ReplyDeleteI know of white politicians in France and the USA who are in jail. Does that mean neither society ever discriminates against blacks?
Naturally it does not. But if you see more blacks or as in Hungary more Roma in jail does not mean that these societies dicriminate against blacks or Roma (they do BTW). Let me risk to be called a racist (i'm definitely not one) but different cultures have different ideas about keeping the common law, about public property, about almost anything. I wouldn't distribute grades - I think that every culture has it's advantages and disadvantages. In the Roma culture (as in the Bedouin and other nomadising societies) the idea of private property vs common tribal property is obviously different from the Western ideas. In the traditional ME culture taking the public property and giving it to the taker's smaller community is much less moral offense than dishonouring the family. Naturally the Mizrachi community in Israel who inherited these ideas has been changed dramatically but if you look at the jailed Mizrachi leaders - they didn't take anything for their own purposes but for the Mizrachi religious educational and/or welfare system. (Not like Hirschenson who is a common thief).
ReplyDeleteTo make a long story short - the ancestral origin of jailed politicians has few connection to the composition of the courts but undoubtedly the Askenazi elitism
of previos decades has it very bad influence - it was the main culprit in the alienation of big parts of the Mizrachi/religious community.
Peter the H-
ReplyDeleteHirshenson was formerly of the Likud. That is reasons enough for hiim to be harrassed by the prosecutors. That is not to say he is not guilty, its just that prosecution for politicians are not done because of the "pursuit of justice" or the desire to "uproot corruption", they are carried out to terrorize the politicans of the wrong political persuation (i.e. the Right). As I recall, no politician who was born and bred in the "peace camp" has ever been prosecuted, with the exception of Haim Ramon who, as Justice Minister, was a sworn opponent of Aharon Barak's protege, Dorit Beinish. Thus, Ramon had to be removed, and they came up with another "sexual harrassment case" even thought the girl involved did not want to press charges. She was threated with being prosecuted if she didn't.
Again, I am not saying those being prosecuted are not guilty, but a lot of the cases are a matter of "get something on him", or as Stalin's NKVD would say "you give me the man and I'll give you the charges". The prosecutions are done on a selective, political basis. The whole system stinks.
Y. Ben-David
ReplyDeleteI'm not a legal expert (very far from it) but every occasion when there is any criminal charge against any politician there is the possibilty to turn the proceedings into a political campaign. No doubt that the media plays a big role - probably most of the criminal investigations against politicians have been triggered by some expose by a newspaper or a TV report. I suspect that this has nothing to do with the journalists political affiliations but the hunt for ratings - and yellow journalism.
The resignation of Ezer Weizmann (Labour) was the consequence of allegations of improper financial activity, as far as I remember the only reason that he had not been prosecuted was the statute of limitations had expired. The resignation of Rabin was the result of an expose about his wife's illegal account in a TV report by Dan Margalit.
An ex health minister has been caught smuggling drugs - as far as I remember he was a secular Ashkenazi too and spent years in jail.
From the other side a Likud (later Kadima) politician Meir Sheetrit (who I guess is of Moroccan origin) has been tried and acquitted.
Sadly in Israeli politics to neutralize an opponent by allegations of criminal activity is a frequently used tactic and I think that both halves of the political spectrum are involved in it.
"An ex health minister has been caught smuggling drugs - as far as I remember he was a secular Ashkenazi too and spent years in jail."
ReplyDeleteOnce again, you have a sample size problem.
Hmmm. Why is it less than convincing for a poster with a reference to Europe in his/her moniker (Peterthehungarian) to assure us that discrimination against Sephardim did not enter the picture -- especially when he goes on to trash Sephardi "culture"?
ReplyDelete"the ancestral origin of jailed politicians has few connection to the composition of the courts"
That's obvious nonsense. The Supreme Court has a single Sephardic judge (of nine) and the court which convicted Katsav had no Sephardim at all. The same left which insists disparate numbers to indicate discrimination, apparently is hypocritically incapable of applying the same logic to the institutions it rules with an iron fist.
Quite searing observations about this farcical show trial have been made by two well-known Israelis:
Prominent Israeli attorney Yoram Sheftel
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/news.aspx/141444
Maariv Deputy editor Ben Dror Yemini
http://zioncon.blogspot.com/2010/12/maarivs-yemini-on-katsav-affair.htmlYemini
Sheftel pointed out, "There is no evidence to back up the accusations."
Yemini pointed out:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/31/AR2010123101558.html
"One of the few dissenting voices was Ben-Dror Yemini, a columnist for the daily Maariv, who accused the judges of caving into hostile media coverage of Katsav and partly acting on prejudice against Jews of Middle Eastern origin.
Katsav was born in Iran and grew up in a poor Israeli town, becoming a young mayor and a political success story before his spectacular fall from grace. Many critics in Israel see the legal system as representing a secular elite dominated by Israelis of European origin and liberal views. "The contempt and loathing were already there," Yemini wrote. "Katsav is not one of our own. Katsav is the other, the stranger who occupied a role he had no business taking."
The whole matter is the revenge the elitist, white, secular, socialist, racist Israeli leftist political mafia are taking against an upstart, moderately religious, Likudnik Mizrahi -- Katsav -- who dared displace an Ashkenazi leftist, Peres, from the Presidency.
It also confirms a pattern of the Israeli left pursuing a vile, hate-filled obsession with suppresing Jews who are religious or politically conservative.
The Slonim trial was a farce, a blood libel against the Slonim; a judiciary which doesn't even jail seditious Israeli Arabs, trumped up reasons to jail frum Jews.
Hilonim just had to maliciously march into Mea Shearim to force the religious to abandon even a single day of street separation of men and women, for the holiday. Why couldn't the hilonim have left Mea Shearim alone?
And now, an ex-President faces 50 years of jail on a trumped-up charge simply because he is a politically-conservative, moderately-religious Mizrahi.
Israel's show trials of the religious, must stop; they are an unpleasant echo of anti-Semitic show trials under the Tsars, under Stalin, and in many Muslim countries.
Hmmm. Why is it less than convincing for a poster with a reference to Europe in his/her moniker (Peterthehungarian) to assure us that discrimination against Sephardim did not enter the picture -- especially when he goes on to trash Sephardi "culture"?
ReplyDelete"the ancestral origin of jailed politicians has few connection to the composition of the courts"
That's obvious nonsense. The Supreme Court has a single Sephardic judge (of nine) and the court which convicted Katsav had no Sephardim at all. The same left which insists disparate numbers to indicate discrimination, apparently is hypocritically incapable of applying the same logic to the institutions it rules with an iron fist.
Quite searing observations about this farcical show trial have been made by two well-known Israelis:
Prominent Israeli attorney Yoram Sheftel
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/news.aspx/141444
Maariv Deputy editor Ben Dror Yemini
http://zioncon.blogspot.com/2010/12/maarivs-yemini-on-katsav-affair.htmlYemini
Sheftel pointed out, "There is no evidence to back up the accusations."
Yemini pointed out:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/31/AR2010123101558.html
"One of the few dissenting voices was Ben-Dror Yemini, a columnist for the daily Maariv, who accused the judges of caving into hostile media coverage of Katsav and partly acting on prejudice against Jews of Middle Eastern origin.
Katsav was born in Iran and grew up in a poor Israeli town, becoming a young mayor and a political success story before his spectacular fall from grace. Many critics in Israel see the legal system as representing a secular elite dominated by Israelis of European origin and liberal views. "The contempt and loathing were already there," Yemini wrote. "Katsav is not one of our own. Katsav is the other, the stranger who occupied a role he had no business taking."
The whole matter is the revenge the elitist, white, secular, socialist, racist Israeli leftist political mafia are taking against an upstart, moderately religious, Likudnik Mizrahi -- Katsav -- who dared displace an Ashkenazi leftist, Peres, from the Presidency.
It also confirms a pattern of the Israeli left pursuing a vile, hate-filled obsession with suppresing Jews who are religious or politically conservative.
The Slonim trial was a farce, a blood libel against the Slonim; a judiciary which doesn't even jail seditious Israeli Arabs, trumped up reasons to jail frum Jews.
Hilonim just had to maliciously march into Mea Shearim to force the religious to abandon even a single day of street separation of men and women, for the holiday. Why couldn't the hilonim have left Mea Shearim alone?
And now, an ex-President faces 50 years of jail on a trumped-up charge simply because he is a politically-conservative, moderately-religious Mizrahi.
Israel's show trials of the religious, must stop; they are an unpleasant echo of anti-Semitic show trials under the Tsars, under Stalin, and in many Muslim countries.
Hmmm. Why is it less than convincing for a poster with a reference to Europe in his/her moniker (Peterthehungarian) to assure us that discrimination against Sephardim did not enter the picture -- especially when he goes on to trash Sephardi "culture"?
ReplyDelete"the ancestral origin of jailed politicians has few connection to the composition of the courts"
That's obvious nonsense. The Supreme Court has a single Sephardic judge (of nine) and the court which convicted Katsav had no Sephardim at all. The same left which insists disparate numbers to indicate discrimination, apparently is hypocritically incapable of applying the same logic to the institutions it rules with an iron fist.
Quite searing observations about this farcical show trial have been made by two well-known Israelis:
Prominent Israeli attorney Yoram Sheftel
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/news.aspx/141444
Maariv Deputy editor Ben Dror Yemini
http://zioncon.blogspot.com/2010/12/maarivs-yemini-on-katsav-affair.htmlYemini
Sheftel pointed out, "There is no evidence to back up the accusations."
Yemini pointed out:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/31/AR2010123101558.html
"One of the few dissenting voices was Ben-Dror Yemini, a columnist for the daily Maariv, who accused the judges of caving into hostile media coverage of Katsav and partly acting on prejudice against Jews of Middle Eastern origin.
Katsav was born in Iran and grew up in a poor Israeli town, becoming a young mayor and a political success story before his spectacular fall from grace. Many critics in Israel see the legal system as representing a secular elite dominated by Israelis of European origin and liberal views. "The contempt and loathing were already there," Yemini wrote. "Katsav is not one of our own. Katsav is the other, the stranger who occupied a role he had no business taking."
The whole matter is the revenge the elitist, white, secular, socialist, racist Israeli leftist political mafia are taking against an upstart, moderately religious, Likudnik Mizrahi -- Katsav -- who dared displace an Ashkenazi leftist, Peres, from the Presidency.
It also confirms a pattern of the Israeli left pursuing a vile, hate-filled obsession with suppresing Jews who are religious or politically conservative.
The Slonim trial was a farce, a blood libel against the Slonim; a judiciary which doesn't even jail seditious Israeli Arabs, trumped up reasons to jail frum Jews.
Hilonim just had to maliciously march into Mea Shearim to force the religious to abandon even a single day of street separation of men and women, for the holiday. Why couldn't the hilonim have left Mea Shearim alone?
And now, an ex-President faces 50 years of jail on a trumped-up charge simply because he is a politically-conservative, moderately-religious Mizrahi.
Israel's show trials of the religious, must stop; they are an unpleasant echo of anti-Semitic show trials under the Tsars, under Stalin, and in many Muslim countries.
Apologies for the duplicates (due to technical malfunction).
ReplyDeletePeter H-
ReplyDeletePlease keep in mind that Ezer Weizeman (year 2000) and Yitzhak Rabin (1977) both held jobs that Shimon Peres was telling everyone quite openly that he wanted. They were classic cases of the "get something on him" syndrome.
All people that start out in the Likud are fair game, even if they go over to the Left in order to save themselves. Good examples are Hirshenson, Omri Sharon, Tzachi HaNegbi and Yitzhak Mordechai. Mordechai was like Ramon, the charges of sexual harassment (why not rape?) were made against him even thought the woman involved tried to annul the charges.
Again, I not saying they are all being framed, I AM saying that if they were life-long MERETZ or Labor people, they never would be charged in the first place, no matter what they did.
to me it seems, that some of the commentators here are suffering from רגשי נחיתות
ReplyDeleteNB: and it is quite disgusting to to take side of a rapist because he shares some political value.
ReplyDeletethis complaining about racism if convicted is so common.
i remember some shas guy being sentenced for some economical crime saying that he was just sentenced because he is marroccan (he should get an extra year for that).
really. we do not live in a time when yemenite children are kidnapped.
I am amazed at some of the comments here and the ignorance that they show of the complexities and realities of Israeli society.
ReplyDeleteOne of the problems with the legal system and its practitioners is that they have added public relations and advertising skills to their legal practices. The basic strategy is "don't confuse me with the facts".
I am glad to live in country where my daughters have the protection of the law against such powerful and evil sexual predators. Over the years things seem to moving in the right direction in the army and in public in protecting women from powerful men.
The decision on Katzav will not eradicate this sort of behaviour from society as human beings are human, but it does mean that they will be prevented from carrying on their disgusting and evil habits and protect other victims.
The fact that over the past 30 years many of the convicted politicians in corruption and sexual cases seem to have come from the right of centre (not that I am sure it is true, the other commentators seem to be referring to feelings rather than facts) is the fact that the right wing parties have been in power for more or less the whole time (35 out of the last 43 years) so they are the ones with the opportunity to get their hands into the till.
Zionist Juice and Avi have quite typically failed to debate the actual evidence -- or, more accurately, the lack thereof. Sheftel, a trained lawyer, examined the dossier in detail and found no evidence.
ReplyDeleteThe general problems of macho Israeli males or corrupt politicians are irrelevant to any particular defendant such as Katsav, since it is the responsibility of the prosecution to prove the guilt beyond reasonable doubt of the particular individual, not of the general class of "Israeli males" or "Israeli politicians." A defendant such as Katsav cannot be convicted simply because he belongs to the general class of "Israeli males" or "Israeli politicians."
But Zionist Juice and Avi have quite typically substituted the entire class for an examination of the actual evidence -- or, more accurately, the lack thereof. Sheftel, a trained lawyer, examined the dossier in detail and found no evidence.
The trial itself, and the defenders of it, are engaging in motzi shem ra, itself an evil.
Just a thought and fellow conspiracy commentors: Enough. You've made your point.
ReplyDeleteKatsav wasn't sentenced for being Sepharadi, nor for being a Likudnik. He was convicted of repeatedly attacking women who were his direct subordinates in various offices over a period of many years. These attacks included the use of force, intimidation, and in some cases, simply violence. A man who throws a woman on the floor, tears off her clothes, and forces sex onto her, is a beast, irrespective of his political identity. When he does this repeatedly, over many years, he's a serial rapist.
The only way for your claims to be possible is to assume Israel's courts are willing to concoct evidence for political purposes, as a court in Russia recently proved it does. That is a very serious allegation, worthy of the Guardian perhaps, but not acceptable unless you can provide lots of compelling evidence. A statement by Yoram Sheftel won't suffice - even if he did say so, which I very much doubt.
If you persist, I may need to shut down comments on this thread, a step I've never taken before.
@ just a thought
ReplyDeleteyou say
"The general problems of macho Israeli males or corrupt politicians are irrelevant to any particular defendant such as Katsav, since it is the responsibility of the prosecution to prove the guilt beyond reasonable doubt of the particular individual, not of the general class of "Israeli males" or "Israeli politicians." A defendant such as Katsav cannot be convicted simply because he belongs to the general class of "Israeli males" or "Israeli politicians."
before to you he was convicted because he was a rightist and/or a sfardi.
know you go even further, and say he was convicted because he was an israeli male.
wow. you really hang yourself out here.
loyalty is a nice thing.
but if loyalty is blind that get to really bad places.
Natanyahu: “Today the court conveyed two clear-cut messages, that all are equal before the law and that every woman has exclusive rights to her body.”
ReplyDeletehe must be part of the leftist elders of zion of israel too,
or they just pay him, huh, NormanF Just a thought!!
Why do people from America called NormanF have so mean oppinions about Israel?
NB: I think my sarcasm is obvious...
ReplyDeleteHaaretz: 'When asked whether he really believed that his client was innocent, Feldman declared: "When Moshe Katsav decided to reject the plea bargain, it was clear that he was heading toward a vicious battle… but he decided to do it. I say that it looks like he has been guided by his conscience."'
ReplyDeletethat i lawyer gibberish for "no, but i cannot say so".
so, if even his own lawyer cannot say straight forward that his client is innocent, what do you want!?
Yaacov, you have completely missed the point. Since so many of my loony-left Israeli friends use the USA as a model of liberal democracy, I will use the USA as an example as well.
ReplyDeleteIn this farcical trial of Katsav, the media and court managed to violate almost every standard of due process core to the US view of civilised law and human rights:
1. The accused has a right to a trial by a jury of his peers. This was violated as there was no jury.
2. The judges were not representative peers; there were no Separdim at all.
3. The accused has a right to a fair trial untainted by prejudicial publicity. But the pre-trial publicity against Katsav was massive.
4. In the USA the publicity would have been met with either a judicial gag order, or a change of venue, or both. But Israel is too small for a change of venue so th charges would have been dismissed.
5. The timing was beyond any reasonable statute of limitations.
6. The accused has a right to confront (cross-examine) his accuser in open court. But the court was closed and I noticed no cross-examination.
7. Hearsay is not evidence. But the court admitted as so-called evidence, the accuser's ostensible statements to her friends. But the friends contradicted her, so the accuser's claims of statements to her friends should have been excluded as "evidence."
8. The main accuser went back to work for Katsav even after more than one claimed rape. No victim does that.
9. It was Katsav who brought the matter to the police. Actual perpetrators do not do that.
10. Not one of the accusations had forensic or medical corroboration.
11. Not one of the accusations had witness corroboration.
12. The prosecution had earlier dismissed the "evidence" as insufficient. That is itself is enough for reasonable doubt and in the USA might have brought summary dismssal.
I have no doubt Katsav is a libidinous, lecherous skirt-chaser. But that is not criminal and does not merit conviction, much less incarceration. You may dismiss Sheftel as you will, but the above core issues of human rights are not so easily dismissed.
In the end, it is your (Israeli) problem to figure out why the Israeli judiciary engaged in such a farce -- whether mob pressure, or Katsavs politics, or Katsav's "race," or other problems. But you cannot so easily ignore the fact that it was a farce under any understanding of human rights.
For what it's worth, I'm generally leftist myself -- but a leftist with a conscience.
If the Israeli left insists upon such abominations, do not be surprised if you lose your last remaining foreign support, that of conervative, heretofore pro-Israeli Christians.
Yaacov
ReplyDelete"That is a very serious allegation, worthy of the Guardian perhaps, but not acceptable unless you can provide lots of compelling evidence."
You have inverted normal jurisprudence; it was up to the prosecution to prove Katsav's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, with evidence and corroboration. It did not.
"A statement by Yoram Sheftel won't suffice - even if he did say so, which I very much doubt."
I gave the link, above. You're welcome to contact him directly and ask for his full comments. Host a debate with him or a guest article in Hebrew, if you wish.
Sheftel on Katsav:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/news.aspx/141444
Sheftel on the Israeli judiciary's drift to political trials:
http://www.mypracticalphilosophy.com/shelp/speechisraelmain.htm
"Sheftel claimed that "the State Prosecution is becoming a pillar of the leftist camp. There must be a public reaction for this selection exercised by the Prosecution in putting people on trial for their political views.""
Rampant (and creative) conspiracy theorizing is one of the main reasons why the Arab/Islamic world together with the FSU states Union (and assorted and diverse fellow travelers of each) are at the forefront of civilization (and an inspiration to all enlightened, intelligent and progressive humanity).
ReplyDeleteKeep it up fellas!!
Hmmm. Why is it less than convincing for a poster with a reference to Europe in his/her moniker (Peterthehungarian) to assure us that discrimination against Sephardim did not enter the picture -- especially when he goes on to trash Sephardi "culture"?
ReplyDeleteIf you read my comment you certainly would add an other thought - that I didn't "trash" any culture at all, I wrote that they are different but I don't give any grades to any of them. Falsely accusing your opponents with racism wouldn't make your point stronger only proves that you don't have any objective and convincing argument.
The composition of the court is utterly irrelevant - if there is no judge of Hungarian origin in the court - could I claim that they can't consider my actions objectively? You guys are not serious.
Rape is rape and against the law. No doubt that in the past there were politicians who were considered above it, but this happened a long time ago and the Israeli society has changed dramatically since then for the better. As an other poster said:
really. we do not live in a time when yemenite children are kidnapped.
That Yoram Sheftel has his own opinion is very welcome - we are living in a free country - but so what? Has he some heavenly authority?
"so, if even his own lawyer cannot say straight forward that his client is innocent, what do you want!? "
ReplyDeleteIn any modern, liberal, civilised society, it is not up to the defense to prove its client innocent or not; it is up to the prosecution to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt, via evidence, not simply uncorroborated accusation.
But that's all there was in this case -- uncorroborated accusation.
Yaacov, you have completely missed the point. Since so many of my loony-left Israeli friends use the USA as a model of liberal democracy, I will use the USA as an example as well.
ReplyDeleteIn this farcical trial of Katsav, the Israeli media and court managed to violate almost every standard of due process core to the US view of civilised law and human rights:
1. The accused has a right to a trial by a jury of his peers. This was violated as there was no jury.
2. The judges were not representative peers; there were no Separdim at all.
3. The accused has a right to a fair trial untainted by prejudicial publicity. But the pre-trial publicity against Katsav was massive.
4. In the USA the publicity would have been met with either a judicial gag order, or a change of venue, or both. But Israel is too small for a change of venue so th charges would have been dismissed.
5. The timing was beyond any reasonable statute of limitations.
6. The accused has a right to confront (cross-examine) his accuser in open court. But the court was closed and I noticed no cross-examination.
7. Hearsay is not evidence. But the court admitted as so-called evidence, the accuser's ostensible statements to her friends. But the friends contradicted her, so the accuser's claims of statements to her friends should have been excluded as "evidence."
8. The main accuser went back to work for Katsav even after more than one claimed rape. No victim does that.
9. It was Katsav who brought the matter to the police. Actual perpetrators do not do that.
10. Not one of the accusations had forensic or medical corroboration.
11. Not one of the accusations had witness corroboration.
13. The "victim" did not complain to the police at the time.
14. The "victim" did not make any administrative complaints at that time. (Union?)
15. The prosecution had earlier dismissed the "evidence" as insufficient. That is itself is enough for reasonable doubt and in the USA might have brought summary dismssal.
I have no doubt Katsav is a libidinous, lecherous skirt-chaser. But that is not criminal and does not merit conviction, much less incarceration. You may dismiss Sheftel as you will, but the above core issues of human rights are not so easily dismissed.
In the end, it is your (Israeli) problem to figure out why the Israeli judiciary engaged in such a farce -- whether mob pressure, or Katsavs politics, or Katsav's "race," or other problems. But you cannot so easily ignore the fact that it was a farce under any understanding of human rights.
For what it's worth, I'm generally leftist myself -- but a leftist with a conscience.
If the Israeli left insists upon such abominable tretment of the religious right, do not be surprised if you lose your last remaining foreign support, that of conservative, heretofore pro-Israeli Christians.
Pro -
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't even know where to begin, you've got so many of your facts wrong. So I"ll point out that in Israel, as in most countries of the world, including most democratic ones, there's no such thing as trial by jury, nor has there ever been, nor is there any public demand to have such a system.
From there on your enumerations of "fact" gets ever weaker.
Yaacov
ReplyDelete"That is a very serious allegation, worthy of the Guardian perhaps, but not acceptable unless you can provide lots of compelling evidence."
You have inverted nornal jurisprudence; it was up to the prosecution to prove Katsav's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, with evidence and corroboration. It did not.
"A statement by Yoram Sheftel won't suffice - even if he did say so, which I very much doubt."
The link is given above. If you don't believe it, just contact him directly and ask for his full comments. Host a debate with him or a guest article in Hebrew, if you wish.
Sheftel on Katsav:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/news.aspx/141444
Sheftel on the Israeli judiciary's drift to political trials:
http://www.mypracticalphilosophy.com/shelp/speechisraelmain.htm
"Sheftel claimed that "the State Prosecution is becoming a pillar of the leftist camp. There must be a public reaction for this selection exercised by the Prosecution in putting people on trial for their political views.""
"So I"ll point out that in Israel, as in most countries of the world, including most democratic ones, there's no such thing as trial by jury, nor has there ever been, nor is there any public demand to have such a system."
ReplyDeleteI never said most countries had jury trials; I said the most advanced democratic countries consider a trial by jury to be a core human right in any serious criminal case.
Further, what "most contries" consider a standard of behaviour is irrelevant to justice; at one time "most countries" considered Jews inferior, and many still do. So why do you cite "most countries"???
I think you have made up your mind about Katsav on a basis of emotion rather than on the legal case, which was non-existent.
Pro-
ReplyDeleteI have been hearing stories about Katzav's exploits since the 1980s (!). In spite of that, as recently as last Thursday morning I had no opinion about the outcome of his trial one way or the other. My opinion now is that he had his day in a legitimate court, and was convicted. While it's conceivable that the conviction may be overturned in a higher court, until then he's legally a convicted criminal. Should he later be exonerated, that will also be because a court said so. Since I'm not a court, I see no reason to doubt the decision made by one. That's what citizens in democracies do: they accept verdicts of courts, unless they wish to go to another court to argue the matter. Innuendo, gossip, conspiracy theories - all these have no legal standing.
And now it's time to end this very strange discussion.
Here, Plaut claims the court papers outrightly admit the court convicted Katsav of charges they knew he didn't commit (rape) in order to circumvent the legal Statute of Limitations for a charge they thought he did commit (harassment):
ReplyDeletehttp://stevenplaut.blogspot.com/2011_01_01_archive.html
Yaacov wrote:
"My opinion now is that he had his day in a legitimate court, and was convicted."
But what you are saying is that you are completely unconcerned that the court convicted a man of crimes he did not commit, by (according to Plaut) the court's own admission. It stinks to high heaven and is a stain on Israel.
A man who throws a woman on the floor, tears off her clothes, and forces sex onto her
ReplyDeleteof all rape stories I've heard or come close to over the decades that variation wasn't included -
it sounds like a description from a soft-porn turn-on novel but not like a description from real life.