Wednesday, April 21, 2010

A Plague on Both Their Houses

I've been giving rather a lot of attention to the tiny group of Israelis, a few thousand at most, who systematically spew out lies about their country for consumption by millions worldwide who lap it eagerly up.

There is of course another group of fanatic extremists at the opposite end of the political spectrum, violent chauvinists who attack Palestinian villagers or IDF troops sent to preserve order with equal moral obtuseness. Yesterday they celebrated Yom Haatzmaut, for example, by rampaging.

As so often in these matters, the longer you observe them the more these groups begin to resemble each other, the more they feed off one another and encourage each other, and the more they need each other to justify their own actions.

64 comments:

Alex Stein said...

And of course you'll back up your drawing of equivalence with an example of someone on the Israeli left using physical violence against their political opponents?

Yaacov said...

Good morning Alex!

First, the loonies at Sheikh Jarrah and Bili'in-Nili'in have no compuctions against violence. Second, if you assume that actions are the result of words (or concepts articulated in them), wielding the pen in a manner that encourages the eventual wielding of swords is no better than wielding clubs, and probably worse. Third, I'm going offline for most of the day, so you get the last word (for a while).

Bryan said...

I think it's important to note for those who don't read the entire article that the settlement leadership denounced the attack in no uncertain terms, and that it was mainly reactionary students at one certain yeshiva.

Not that there aren't violent settlers--there are--but some people characterize all of them as bloodthirsty zealots, and that's simply not accurate.

Alex Stein said...

Good morning,
With all due respect, Yaacov, I've been to Sheikh Jarrah on a number of occasions, and the idea that the participants there would use violence is a lie. But if you have some evidence to back it up, I'm all ears.

There is violence at Bilin (where I've also been a few times), but from teenage Palestinians throwing stones, and I've never seen the Israeli participants engage in violence. Again, if you have evidence to back up your allegations, please present it.
I hope that this isn't the last word, because I think you have some explaining to do.

Didi Remez said...

As a very respectful reader of your writing, I presume that your "plague" refers to the perpetrators of the only fact you cite -- violence, and that it does not refer to a much wider public that shares their vision for the future of Israel.

This is because I think that we share the belief borders of legitimacy in a democratic society are respect for the rule of law and non-violence. Thought, speech and association are values that a democrat must fight to protect, especially if he disagrees with them.

Therefore, I would not wish a "plague" on extreme Israeli theocrats and/or nationalists for their views, despite the fact that I am, I think,much further away from them ideologically than you. In fact,just recently, I have been a vocal advocate of Itamr Ben Gvir and Co.'s right to march in Silwan and before that in Umm el Fahmm. I have also protested the arrest of two Im Tirzu volunteers arrested this weekend for hanging posters with content that I find despicable.

Since many of the "extreme left-wing" organizations that you have criticized in the past have not engaged in illegal and violent activity, I assume that you are not referring to them as parallels of the violent settlers.

If that is indeed the case, I think that it would be wise to clarify, perhaps including references to examples of extreme left-wingers organizations and individuals who have perpetrated similar violent acts.

Respectfully,

Didi Remez

Didi Remez said...

Yaacov,

One more thing, in the context of my previous comment and yours.

I presume that by "loonies in Sheikh Jarrah" you are not referring to the protesters in general, but to those that have engaged in violence.

If you are referring to the protesters generally, please allow me to give you some first-hand information.

I have been arrested twice. In both cases two different magistrates (both of which could hardly be called leftists) ruled that the arrests were illegal and that the protesters had not disturbed the public order, certainly not engaged in violence. This is the case with over one hundred other arrests.

Therefore, I would ask that you refrain from Lashon Hara, and cite specific incidents of violence of disregard for rule of law, rather than smearing the thousands who cumulatively participated in the protests.

On the personal level, even though I disagree with you fundamentally disagree with you on many issues of principle, I respect your beliefs and willingness to forcefully advocate for them and would never call you a "loony."

JG Campbell said...

Alex

Are you the Alex Stein who used to run a blog called False Dichotomies (http://falsedichotomies.com/) and, before that, used to contribute from time to time to the Engage website (http://engageonline.wordpress.com/) which was set up to combat left-wing anti-Zionism/antisemitism inside the British lecturers' union (now known as UCU)?

Just curious, that's all.

Regards,
Jonathan

Didi Remez said...

Obviously, JG Campbell, you're "just curious", because a scholar of your stature would never stoop to undermining a reasoned argument by insinuating guilt by association or by changing the subject.

He would formulate a reasoned response, or if he couldn't, remain silent.

BTW and for the record -- I hereby declare that I have never been a member of the Communist Party.

Alex Stein said...

JG Campbell - I am.

Didi - I think you've jumped the gu a bit there - he could just be an old fan who wondered where I got to. I think the rest of what you have written is spot on though; I look forward to hearing Yaacov's response.

Barry Meislin said...

....which was set up to combat left-wing anti-Zionism/antisemitism inside the British lecturers' union (now known as UCU)...

Guilt by association? Insinuation?

This is bizarre; since just why would any (reasonable) reader of this particular blog have anything against such an initiative? Most, I, would hazard, would applaud. Certainly, I would. (So what exactly is the beef, here?....)

Anonymous said...

during a recent post it was mentioned that your (Alex?) outfit receives funds from the German protestant church which by the church's own website is meant to help you
"to express their concerns with regard to human rights and international humanitarian law more effectively in Germany and Europe."

anybody who knows about the power German church wields via their positions in the broadcasting boards of the public TV and Radio stations immediately understands that here is one reason why your views dominate our media and why views like Yaacov's let alone those of well-behaved settlers are a hard to find as a needle in a haystack.
I may be naive but I object to citizens of a country accepting foreign money to better spread bad stories about their country and especially if these opportunities are given to people who have a vision, I am terribly afraid of visionaries.

Silke

Didi Remez said...

Silke -- Thank you so much for answering Barry Meislin for me.

Barry -- Thank you for demonstrating with Campbell how to change the subject without addressing the subject of the debate.

AKUS said...

Draw an imaginary "V" in your mind.

Put one group of extremists at one end of the "V", and their opposing extremists at the other end. Like ants on a Moebius strip, they think its a long way to go all around the "V" to get to the other end. Viewed from the side, they are much closer to each other.

Rampaging settlers and rampaging jihadis may think they are far apart, but to many of, from the side they seem remarkably close to each other.

Gavin said...

Alex, Didi. Get with the plot boys. Yaacov didn't claim that violence was the equivalent factor between the two camps. You invented that one becaue it suits you to believe it, he hasn't made anything even resembling that claim. It's the extremism and undermining of the authority of the state which they share in common. That's perfectly obvious in Yaacovs words. So the extremists on left & right have different methods, they're still the same aren't they. The left incite others to violence, the right indulge in violence. What's the difference?

Gavin

Barry Meislin said...

Curiouser and curiouser....

Nonetheless (and if this is indeed the "insinuation"), I don't agree that one initiative that is aimed (as it appears) to defend the State of Israel should be be "balanced" by another (or others) that defame and slander the State of Israel.

(Though I suppose I might be naive if, in fact, that particular campaign against the boycott of Israeli academics was mounted a) to defend the State of Israel or, more specifically, b) to defend Israeli academics because the latter are to a large degree, weighted to the Left side of the political spectrum, critical (or harshly critical) of the State of Israel, and hence (as the logic would go) should not be punished by others who are also critical in the same way and who, by rights (or logic) should support those same Israeli academics rather than "punish" them by a boycott.

So which is it "a"? Or "b"?....

And/or does it matter...? (since the Lord doth work in mysterious ways....)

Victor said...

There is plenty of leftist violence, you just don't hear about it on Haaretz. Rabbis for Human Rights routinely goes out to the villages and finds Palestinians whose grandfather owned some piece of land sixty years ago, before someone's cousin sold it to Jews without asking the rest of the family, and then they tell the Arabs to go get their land back. It's incitement, pure and simple, without mentioning more extreme examples of burning fields and the like.

If you're truly interested, Alex, talk to Marc Prowisor. He's often called in to calm people down after leftist agitators ignite violence.

As for breaking the law, has everyone already forgot Anat Kam?

Lastly, and something Yaacov hasn't mentioned, is that the left and the right are not the only purveyors of misdeed. There are plenty of troublemakers within the security forces themselves who employ indiscriminate force in dealing with peaceful protesters and goading people to defend themselves to justify beatings and arrests.

What happened at Gilad Farm last November, where a Border Guard ran a truck over farmland to destroy irrigation equipment and finally rammed into a light pole, bringing it down, is one example. Then they charged someone for damage to the truck (a blown tire). Try dealing with that bullshit calmly.

This Is Hell said...

I suppose community agitation is rampant all over the world, more or less. I am not entirely sure what you or I would do when the army showed up to throw us out of our homes. I am not convinced this is precisely analogous to Palestinians shooting at cars or dropping 30 lb rocks down on people's heads at the Kotel though. I'm pretty sure the Jews confronting the army do not have racist murderous intent in their hearts nor homemade rockets in their basements.

Alex Stein said...

Anonymous - which outfit are you referring to?

This is Hell - I am sure you have equal sympathy for when Palestinians are thrown out of their homes?

Gavin - Yaacov said: "First, the loonies at Sheikh Jarrah and Bili'in-Nili'in have no compuctions against violence."

Still waiting for Yaacov's response...

Gavin said...

Alex. Yaacov attracts what can be considered a thinking readership to his blog. Your transparent duplicity doesn't work here, we can read the written word. Did Yaacov say they commit acts of violence or did he say that they have no compunction against violence?

Getting others to do your dirty work for you is more despicable than committing the act yourself.

Gavin

Alex Stein said...

Gavin - if getting others to do your dirty work for you is more despicable than committing the act yourself, then ergo Yaacov was saying that the left was at least as bad when it comes to political violence as the charming people of Yizhar. No?

gavin said...

Alex. Taacovs stance has been that factions on the extreme left are behaving in a manner that incites violence towards Israel and Jews in general. That they may not physically commit violent acts themselves in no way diminishes their responsibility for the violence that occurs. So yes, those factions are at least as bad as their counterparts on the right.

Gavin

Anonymous said...

Yaacov,
Why would you call the protesters at Sheikh Jarrah "loonies"? That doesn't make any sense at all.

Alex Stein said...

And I don't believe that Yaacov has convincingly proven this thesis, primarily because he pigeonholes the left, which makes for more convenient scapegoating, and allows him to evade making concrete assertions. Perhaps you can help him out.

Sylvia said...

Alex - hurling stones on border police is violence. Doing so knowing that Israeli security are not exactly your Queen's bobbies is provoking violence.

Spitting on Jews on their way to Friday night prayer is violence. As a matter of fact, to hundreds of thousands of people in this country, spitting on a Jew on his way to Friday night prayer, or its alternatives - stoning a Jew on his way to Friday night prayer or setting him on fire, usually signalled, in their former Muslim countries, the start of what would be the equivalent of a kristallnacht. Houses burnt, windows broken, children terrified, businesses ransacked, and I'll pass.
The fact that you have removed that little detail from your memory - and possibly from reports to your funders - doesn't mean it didn't happen or that it passed unnoticed.It happened in Sheikh Jarrah, it was widely reported on national radio every half hour, and it registered. Personally, I felt that like I was being stabbed in the back - and I am not a particularly observant person.

Anonymous said...

Didi
" how to change the subject without addressing the subject of the debate."

that's the gimmick out of the debater's box of tricks which I encountered at nauseam while amusing myself at Ibrahim's - never found any value in it - if you were serious you would repeat your question giving the other the benefit of the doubt that he/she might have misunderstood you - after having been tempted by the trick over at Ibrahim's a number of times though to the best of my memory never succumbing I by now loose immediately interest in what somebody has to say who uses it.

even calling it a trick is honouring it is just too third class even for that

Silke

Anonymous said...

Alex
I assume by Anonymous you are referring to me - my name is Silke by the way

I refer to the outfit you invited Yaacov to visit and he promised to maybe some posts ago

afterwards I think it was AKUS who got us a list of your donators one of them being EED i.e. Protestant German Church Charity

Silke

This Is Hell said...

Alex; "This is Hell - I am sure you have equal sympathy for when Palestinians are thrown out of their homes?"

Well I don't know as I do or I don't. That's not precisely what I said either. Hell maybe I WOULD pick up a gun and shoot people. Seeing how doing that or doing nothing and wringing your hands that somewhere someone else is also treated shabbily are my only two choices, there is not much of a actionable option in between, is there?

I don't pretend to be a legal absolutist. I'm not a Jainist monk who believes that stepping on an ant is the same thing as chemical warfare.

On the other hand the notion that people confronting the cops or the armed force or whatever over illegal squatting is somehow elevated to some celestial construct because it IS in Israel is nonsense. And if Israel wanted to cut its own throat in the media by doing more or less the same thing to entire illegal Palestinian villages that crop up and tap into the infrastructure, as is common, they could. But it would be stupid to do that.

In fact other than the political points Israel scores by making a public effort of evicting these Jewish folk in lieu of just cutting off all their services and ignoring them to their own fate to solve, sink or swim, there is no purpose to be gained by it. Sorry, but it's theater.

Alex Stein said...

Sylvia - I honestly haven't seen anywhere (I don't listen to the radio much) reports of demonstrators spitting on the settlers. As this is so frequent, I am sure you can send me a report of it. Also - I never claimed that Palestinians didn't throw stones at Bilin etc. What I said was that the Israeli demonstrators don't engage in this activity. If you have any evidence to the contrary, then please let me know.

Alex Stein said...

Silke - as far as I know, CFP doesn't get any money from the protestant church in Germany - please send me a link to the piece you refer to and I will check up on it.

Sylvia said...

" never claimed that Palestinians didn't throw stones at Bilin etc. What I said was that the Israeli demonstrators don't engage in this activity."
I just happened to address this question in the related thread above. This is flawed reasoning. Although we may know who are the guilty individuals - some of them were foreign activists at Sheikh Jarrah - the identity of the individual who uses violence in a demonstration is irrelevant. The organizers are responsible.
The violence in the European and American demonstrations against Cast Lead may have been caused by some fringe elements who joined the demonstration. Yet, the organizers are the ones who have been arrested.

I'll tell you something else. This particular event - which happened at Sheikh Jarrah - was a marked factor in the general population backlash against the NIF.

Alex Stein said...

This particular event which you don't have any evidence for? Still awaiting confirmation of the spitting at Sheikh Jarrah, or indeed any other violence. I will respond to your other claims on the other thread in a little while...

Sylvia said...

"I honestly haven't seen anywhere (I don't listen to the radio much) reports of demonstrators spitting on the settlers."

I didn't say that he was a settler. It was a Jew passing on the street from his house to go to the synagogue near the demonstration at Sheikh Jarrah.

Alex Stein said...

Sylvia - I don't mind repeating the question: where is your evidence for this spitting?

Sylvia said...

As I said on the other thread, you can check your organizations' copies of the police reports. Or search in the Hebrew google.

Carrie said...

Well it took about 10 seconds to find a video of the Sheikh Jarrah protestors spitting at Jews. Here's one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBnFBkhpgBE

I never watched a video of these protestors before, but just from watching this video (which I never would've watched if Alex didn't insist on the spitting "evidence") I never would've known what is going on there. The video showed how the police were being very calm and just trying to maintain order and it was very obvious that these protestors were wishing for a fight. They were charging the police over and over. Some lunatic was screaming in the face of a police officer with a bullhorn, something that would never happen here with no repercussions.

Notice when one protestor ,who rushed the police, fell down, the photographers rushed in to get a picture of the protester on the floor. I can only imagine that such pictures wound up in Haaretz or international media to demonize Israel.

After watching this video, there is no doubt that many people at this rally are indeed "loony" and comparable to the people who attend ANSWER rallies here in The US -fringe leftists who don't mind inciting violence.

Carrie said...

By the way, I was also immediately disgusted by the sight of Uri Avineri. The last time I saw this despicable human being was in the movie Defamation when he claimed there was absolutely "no anti-Semitism" in the US. He would know this how? Does he live here? This may be the best place for a Jew to live in the diaspora, but to make such a stupid statement means this person either lacks all common sense or has to make ridiculous claims in order to validate his warped ideology.

Alex Stein said...

Carrie - that's an 8 minute long video. Please tell me at which point the spitting can be found.

Carrie said...

Alex,

Somewhere btwn 4 & 5 minutes. The spitting was at some Charedim, whom I doubt are settlers. In any case, in your opinion is it okay to spit at settlers? Or just Sheikh Jarrah settlers? I'm confused as to why it mattered whether the spitting was directed at a settler or not.

Of course, I also have no idea whether this is the spitting incident Syliva was referring to.

Alex Stein said...

Carrie - I saw neither haredim nor spitting between 4 and 5 minutes. I would invite other readers to look and see if they saw. Without being too pedantic, Carrie, as this spitting is so clear it shouldn't be too hard to say the precise second that it happened.

For the record, I think spitting at people is wrong. But I think forcibly suppressing a peaceful protest is worse.

JG Campbell said...

Didi - you've got the wrong end of the stick, I'm afraid, for Alex is basically right in his comment about my question near the start of this thread, even though my views in recent years have generally moved towards the centre, like those of Yaacov.

In other words, since I used to find Alex's contributions to the Engage website interesting and challenging, I was genuinely wondering whether it was the same Alex. Indeed, I'd be interested in finding out whether his views about things had changed at all (and if so in which direction) since making aliyah.

As for Engage itself, I disagree with many contributors' general assumptions (i.e. classic leftwing assumptions which seem stuck back in the 1980s) about the nature of the Israel-Palestine conflict and its resolution. Nonetheless, I have a lot of respect for people like David Hirsh and Jon Pike whose efforts to stop academic boycotts of Israel in the British lecturers' unions over the years have been second to none. And many individual articles on the site have been and still are excellent.

Jonathan

Anonymous said...

Alex,
I won't do the googling for you - EED was listed on the website of the outfit you invited Yaacov to - I am sure you know the website of an outfit you promote to Yaacov intimately.
if you are asking for EED - that is googled so easily that I can't believe you are asking me for that URL
http://www.eed.de/en/
Silke

Sylvia said...

Carrie

It doesn't make any difference whether he is a settler or not. Either way it's repugnant. But Alex kept saying settler so as to dissociate the event from Sheikh Jarrah. In other words, if he is a settler it couldn't have taken place in Sheikh Jarrah.

Alex Stein said...

I've looked throughout www.combatantsforpeace.org for EED and I've googled Combatants for Peace and EED and I've even asked our fundraising coordinator and nothing has come up. But as you're so sure I'm sure it will be easy to provide me with the evidence, just like with Sylvia and her spitting.

Jonathan - thanks for clearing that up; hope my thoughts are of interest!

Alex Stein said...

Sylvia - where's the evidence? And I've already said that the spitting is repugnant, but not as repugnant as forcibly suppressing a legal protest.

Anonymous said...

after having been through the rest of the comment thread I am really grateful to Alex for having taught me a good one out of the box of tricks and gimmicks of commenters
- turn them into your googling assistants - neat - really neat

unless Carrie comes up with the exact second of spitting Alex will keep on harping about it but remains totally uninterested in the bullhorn incident which might have been damaging not just the officials clothes but his ear drums.

Alex you should realize that tactics like "unless you are willing to become my googling assistant I call you a lier" don't endear you to me and I guess a lot of others. If you can't be bothered to view the whole 8 minutes of the video which obviously gave Carrie quite a shock or familiarize yourself with the donor list of your website on your own just shut up.

Silke

Alex Stein said...

Silke - I have already stated categorically that CFP do not receive money from the EED. If anyone has evidence to the contrary, they are welcome to submit it.

I have watched the video and can find no evidence whatsoever of spitting. This has nothing to do with trying to enlist googling assistants. It's to do with the basic principle that those who level charges should produce evidence to back them up. That might not be something the most hysterical posters on this blog may be used to, but in civilised circles it is standard practice. I'm sorry if that is too much for you.

Anonymous said...

to be found inthe comment section of this one
and I hope that I am included in those that you label hysterical - I am but I confess to being paranoid also
and btw this is the last time that I'll have acted as your googling serf which I had to do incidentally only because your memory seems to be somewhat - mmmh - selective?
Silke

http://yaacovlozowick.blogspot.com/2010/04/blood-libel.html
AKUS said...
Well, well, well.

Look who funds "hamoked" (cited by Alex Stein).

From their website - an assortment of the world's busybodies:

HaMoked: Center for the Defence of the Individual would like to acknowledge the supporters of this legal internet human rights library:



The Commission of the European Communities, Belgium



The Open Society Institute, USA



HaMoked would like to acknowledge the support of the following donors in 2008:



CCFD (French Catholic Committee against Hunger and for Development), France

E.E.D., Germany

The Commission of the European Communities, Belgium

Diakonia, Sweden

Embassy of Finland, Tel Aviv

The Ford Foundation, USA

Misereor, Germany

NGO Development Center (NDC), Ramallah, Representing Sweden, Denmark, Netherlands and Switzerland

Netherlands Representative Office, Ramallah

New Israel Fund, Israel

Oxfam Novib, Netherlands

Royal Norwegian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Norway

Swiss Cooperation Office Gaza and West Bank (SDC)

Spanish Cooperation Office (AECID), Jerusalem

Trocaire, Ireland

April 16, 2010 5:13 AM

Carrie said...

Alex,

The video that I posted turned up when I searched "Sheikh Jarrah spitting on Jews." It looked like a "loony" may have been spitting on the religious Jews right around 5:15, but maybe not. I'll admit I didn't want to watch the whole 8 minutes.... But then I wanted to make sure, because I really didn't think Sylvia invented this story out of thin air. So I did a minute more searching and I think this 16 second video will prove beyond a doubt that Charedi Jews were spit on @ a Sheikh Jarrah protest:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2wN9nRetf4

Alex Stein said...

Silke - sorry, I thought we were talking about Combatants for Peace. I invited Yaacov to go on a Combatants for Peace tour, not a Moked one. Hence I responded to your question on the assumption that it was about CFP. You wrote: "I refer to the outfit you invited Yaacov to visit and he promised to maybe some posts ago." I assume this is a simple misunderstanding (so no need for the smug well, well, well) - in future, please try to be clearer.

Carrie said...

Silke,

It was actually the policeman who had the bullhorn, which made the protester screaming into the bullhorn seem that much crazier.

I have been to some rallies here in the US and have never seen such behavior. Even at ANSWER rallies, in which the protestors carry disgusting anti-Semitic, racist placards, the protestors rarely harass the police, who everyone knows would rather be anywhere else. If a protestor screamed in a policeman's face like that here, he would probably face arrest.

Alex Stein said...

Carrie - the first video shows Haredi Jews walking through the crowd, nothing more. The second video does indeed show the Haredi Jews being spat on, in this case by what is described as a Palestinian boy (and indeed he looks like a Palestinian boy, although looks can be deceptive). As I said, an awful thing to do (and I was once spat on by a Palestinian when I was in the army, but that's another story).

But this doesn't change anything: I said that Israeli protesters have never used violence or spat at anybody, at either Bilin or Sheikh Jarrah. And as yet nobody has come up with any evidence to prove me wrong.

And I will remind you once again: spitting is reprehensible, but forcibly suppressing peaceful demonstrations, not to mention the settler movement in general, is infintely more reprehensible.

Alex Stein said...

Carrie - so you are now saying it should be a crime to scream in a policeman's face? Interesting. Anyway, a shame that you don't actually live in Israel (which is what I believe real Zionists should do, but that's beside the point), where you would be able to see at first-hand quite how inaccurate your claims regarding Sheikh Jarrah are.

Sylvia said...

Alex
You are in denial (I am being polite).
Regardless of how hard it is ffor you to admit, this is now factual knowledge. You should listen to radio more often.

Carrie said...

Alex,

If a policeman is standing in place and a lunatic comes and gets in his face, I'm sorry but he has no right to do it. It is just not done here at rallies for no reason like that. I guess we just have more respect for authority and understand a rally is the last place a policeman wants to be. Is it the policeman's fault that the court ruled in favor of the Sheikh Jarrah Jews? It looks like these protestors just think it's cool to get in the face of authority figures. There is no denying after watching that video that the protestors rushed the police.

Furthermore, if you are one of the "real Zionists," I guess I missed the part in Hertzl's writings where he spoke of taking money from European organizations.

Sylvia,

The spitting that you were referring to, can you recall whether it was a Palestinian or Israeli who spit on the Jews? I can definitely find the video if I have more information.

Anonymous said...

Alex

I especially love to be talked to in the "please try to" in this sentence "in future, please try to be clearer" style.

and OK my memory was wrong but now the new question, is that outfit funded by EED one you buddy with or do you have no sympathies for it?
I'd sincerely love to know how much your side and the Christians in my country are together in infusing a constant drizzle of a very very lop-sided picture of Israel in our media
- and just to tell you how lop-sided it is - in my experience Uri Avneri is one of the milder voices. But as a voice being even more on the mild side than him I can think only of Avi Primor - here he is for those who speak German trying to engage Germans of all people in helping to save Israel from itself (that's how I understood him)

- and yes Sylvia - just listening is very helpful in learning something - in Avi Primor's case that chuckling habit of his comes across a lot clearer than it would in a video

I don't know that Koerber outfit's connection to the churches but I guess it would be hard to find any such Stiftung=Foundation in my country which doesn't let itself be influenced.

Silke


http://www.koerber-stiftung.de/internationale-politik/podcasts-internationale-politik/podcast-details-int-politik/artikel/frieden-in-nahost-ist-moeglich-1.html

Anonymous said...

Alex
just went back the "well, well, well" stemmed from AKUS. I don't mind being mixed up with AKUS but it makes me wonder, to you read before you answer?
Silke

Sylvia said...

Carrie
The spitters were definitely not Palestinians. They were foreign activists who were part of the demonstration were part of the demonstration.

Alex Stein said...

Silke - I don't know much about HaMoked. I guess I would agree with some of the things they say, and disagree with others, like with most organisations.

Sylvia - hearing on the radio about something now suffices for evidence. Interesting. The words beyond and parody come to mind.

Anonymous said...

Alex
the comment copied below was you? wasn't it? If it was you I sincerely apologize for having obviously wrongly guessed from your rather imperious sounding demand "I await your thoughts on it" that you would know the outfit's credentials intimately and part of credentials is at least in my world who pays the bills. Other than that: don't you think that it is rather cheeky if a 29 year old talks to Yaacov that way or is it because in this you are listed as "authority" that you feel entitled to authoritarian style demands? http://www.wilmerhale.com/files/upload/Boumediene_SpecialistsIsraeliMilitaryLawamicus.pdf

and as to radio and Sylvia
- beware - lots of radio over here in Germany is by now available as transcripts and that surely would qualify as proof or would you demand tapes at your doorstep on top of it
- and until Sylvia's radiostation provides transcripts or she chooses to bother looking for them, how about Sylvia's testimony - I seem to dimly remember that testimonies count even in court.

Silke

btw you needn't have bothered with the answer I might just as well have written it for you, that's how predictible it is
- btw I like the self-description of your "combatants" - "We all used weapons against one another" - it somehow tickles my imagination into overdrive


April 15, 2010 11:55 AM
Alex Stein said...
I assume you were, of course, planning to post HaMoked's response to this - http://www.hamoked.org.il/news_main_en.asp?id=906

I await your thoughts on it.

Sylvia said...

Alex
Hearing about something on the radio does not suffice in itself for evidence. hearing it constantly updated every half hour for an entire afternoon, with people interviewed, unedited, is more than sufficient evidence and this assures that the entire country has heard it too. If you don't know the popularity of reshet bet, then this tells me that you are totally discconneccted from Israel's reality. Getting your news after they've been edited to serve this or that agenda is not going to give you a clear picture. Where do you think Haaretz gets most of its national breaking news, if not from the radio?

Alex Stein said...

Silke - yes that was me, but in this thread you referred to the group whose tour I invited Yaakov to participate in, which I reasonably assumed referred to Combatants for Peace.

Sylvia - now you're telling me the spitting was of such importance that they discussed it all afternoon on the radio, yet you can't find me a single other source to corroborate it. I am sure you can do better than that.

Alex Stein said...

Silke - re. your reaction to CFP; you are in Germany;)

As for the pdf you sent me, wrong Alex Stein, I'm afraid, although it did make me chuckle! A more interesting question is how you know I'm 29?

Anonymous said...

Alex
"Silke - re. your reaction to CFP; you are in Germany;)"
sorry I don't get the joke
- don't see a connection unless it's that I don't know the original title of Bonanza

29 - you say so in your profile - but of course that's another one you don't know much about, n'est-ce pas?

Silke

Alex Stein said...

Ah I didn't realise I had a profile here. Fair enough.