Wednesday, March 10, 2010

Will Biden be Offended?

By this, I mean.

My bet: no, he won't. Not one chance in a million it will even get mentioned in any reportage on his visit.


Anonymous said...

I've only read the first paragraph but it makes me rejoice - it's about time they get an official record

Anonymous said...

now this is how one behaves if one wants to honor Biden :-(((((((
Israel should learn from that ...

The Palestinian Authority on Wednesday ordered the cancellation of a ceremony to honor the woman who led a 1978 hijacking of a civilian bus in Israel that left 35 people dead.

Avigdor said...


The Palestinians are naming another public square for a mass murderer, because that mass murderer - that act of murder against Jews - contributed to creating the conditions under which there now exists a Palestinian authority, receiving money from all over the world, and an Israeli populace (that's you) that supports the creation of a Palestinian state.

Had the Palestinians not murdered and butchered Jews, they would not have achieved near statehood. That the Palestinians put up a square to commemorate this murderer is not offensive, it's reasonable and logical.

That certain people support the creation of a Palestinian state, thus granting legitimacy to the acts of murderers, is another matter.

The very concept that the Palestinians should receive a state because they stopped killing Jews is incredulous - it rewards murder.

If even the Israelis grant legitimacy on political effect of a murderer like Mughrabi, how can you blame the Palestinians for doing the same, or the Americans for not caring?

The resolution to this mess has been in the hands of the Jews, from 1967. Who conferred legitimacy to the PLO? Who brought Arafat back from Tunis? Who created this psychotic paradigm by which the entire world now finds it in its interest to create a Palestinian state on the back of Israeli concessions, while the Palestinians prepare the next stage of war?

How much longer will this stupidity go on?

Yaacov said...

Victor -

I wouldn't sum it up that way, of course. The reason the Palestinians need a state is so that they'll be responsible for their own mess, and we - won't.

Avigdor said...

I just wonder who sites like palwatch are trying to embarrass. Certainly not the Palestinians, who are raising a monument to their heroes and cannot conceptualize to question their national origins. Will this coverage embarrass the PA to rename the square something else?

This will not inform a single American leader, and if it does, so what? It has no effect on the Israelis, so why should the Americans care? Will "negotiations" cease? .

Only the Jews - that's us - should be embarrassed, for allowing a situation to manifest where our murderers have become another people's celebrated national heroes, and this situation is considered perfectly normal despite being within range of Israeli artillery.

Yes, it's all very complicated, very sophisticated, very nuanced, minutia abound. We've tried to snare the other side in complex diplomacy and nuance, and only ended up trapping ourselves, while they continue, not merely unhindered, but strengthened and abetted.

I can't imagine what the principals of Israeli diplomacy think about when they wake in the morning - if there is anything more than self-defeating tactical maneuvering and internal political bickering on the horizon. No, of course, winning elections, embarrassing your opponents, making speeches about peace - all these are very important. At some point, though, as we descend and plateau though this valley of insanity, after G-d knows how many more Jews are dead, G-d forbid, and after more monuments are raised to their murderers, someone will have to deal with the intractable fundamentals.

At least that's how it seems to me.

Yaacov said...

Why do you think things need to be "sorted out"? It seems to me the most one can hope for is to muddle thru as well as possible. That's what we've been doing all along, and these days we do so rather well, in rather good conditions.

Avigdor said...

You assume conditions will remain favorable, and muddling through will suffice to ensure long term interests.

Historically, Israel is at a peak of stability and power projection, especially relative to its neighbors. It is an aberration in the history of the Levant that there is no great power in Egypt, Iraq/Persia or the upper Mediterranean (Syria, Greece, Rome, Turkey).

Furthermore, who is to say that the gains made haven't been in spite of, not as a consequence of, incoherent and contradictory policies? When Israel has acted boldly and clearly, '48 and '67 are examples, it radically transformed the geopolitical environment in lasting, fundamental and beneficial ways. Such gains have ensured a foundation that has absorbed the setbacks of a generation of contradictory policies without overall collapse.

I'm not arguing with you. I don't know what's left to argue. We all want the Palestinians to govern themselves and "deal with their own mess". Obviously we would prefer a Jewish country with a permanent 90% Jewish majority that can afford to lavish all sorts of goodies on its minorities that we can all feel peachy about. I don't question your intentions. But if they won't, and if they shift the responsibility back on Israel, as they have done in Gaza, then what? Is there a point at which enough is enough?

They're insignificant enough to warrant a regional war, and problematic enough to hang around our neck. As long as we're standing up, everything is fine, we can muddle through, as you say. But the minute we jump (or are pushed) in a lake, they'll happily drown us with the rope we helped them build.

NormanF said...

I'm gratified Biden was so upset over homes being built for Jews in a Jewish neighborhood that has been around for over fourteen years. Apparently, the world will end if Jews move into them!

The world has gone meshuggeneh!

4infidels said...


It seems to me that the Palestinians will never accept a state precisely because they don't want the responsibility of taking care of their mess. They are attempting to defeat the Jews by every means other than on the battlefield, since the battlefield is the one place that cannot win right now. So in order to continue demonizing the Jewish state and winning propaganda points in the international arena, it is better for them to not accept a state of their own.

The mindset of the Palestinians--informed first and foremost by their Islamic identity--is that Israel is a dagger in the heart of the Arab/Muslim world and must be destroyed. Obviously there are enlightened exceptions, but those in power--those with the guns and the money and the mosques and the microphones--all seem to be saying that destroying Israel is more important than having independence in part of Palestine. The leadership has consistently declined any opportunities to improve the lives of their people under the assumption that as long as their situation can be blamed on Israel, it serves their interests for their people to be in refugee camps and to keep the story alive of a "people driven out of their homeland." If anything, the Palestinians view offers of a two-state solution and Western or Israeli aid as nothing more than a devious plot to deprive them of their highest purpose, which is to end Jewish sovereignty in the Middle East. It is a zero-sum game for the Arab-Muslim side, and in that respect, independence, governing and nation building will weaken the devotion to jihad, and thus be a betrayal to the Palestinian cause.

Sylvia said...

Joe Biden just finished to speak at TA University. His speech was incredibly pro-Israel.
It seems that he was satisfied by the explanation he received regarding Ramar Shlomo.

Sylvia said...

Ramat Shlomo

Empress Trudy said...

Well yes they would in theory be responsible for their own state. But that wouldn't silence the antizionists and antisemites. Everything everywhere is the fault of the Jews. Everything is blamed on the Jews, suspected of the Jews and something the Jews must be 'pressured' about. So if you think that a shiny happy free democratic Islamic people's republic of PLOstan will calm the maniacs you're wrong. If a Palestinian goat somewhere dies it will be called a Jewish 'provocation'. And the UN will demand some sort of investigation.

chareidilite said...

Furthermore, who is to say that the gains made haven't been in spite of, not as a consequence of, incoherent and contradictory policies? When Israel has acted boldly and clearly, '48 and '67 are examples, it radically transformed the geopolitical environment in lasting, fundamental and beneficial ways. Such gains have ensured a foundation that has absorbed the setbacks of a generation of contradictory policies without overall collapse.

And '56, don't forget '56. Oh wait, that doesn't fit into your thesis, does it? Never mind.

Anonymous said...

let's assume for a moment that you are right about 56 then that's one out of how many???

Avigdor said...

charedilite, how does the 56 war disprove my assertion?

Sylvia said...

Taking full advantage of the momentum and current White House sentiments, the Palestinians have declared today a Day of Furor - throwing in along with other incitement, the accusation that the Jews are planning to rebuild the Temple on the site of El Aqsa mosque in 2010(!).

Avigdor said...

There is a logical argument to be made that the Arabs expect us to treat them the way they would treat us. If they were in charge, any Jewish religious places would be quickly destroyed or turned into public urinals. When the Jews don't do this, they take it as weakness. Either you are brutal, or you are weak - pick your poison.

The radicalization of Palestinians over the last sixty years has been stunning.